OASIS Darwin Information Typing Architecture (DITA) TC

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  • 1.  Fwd: DITA grammars

    Posted 06-22-2021 14:36
    Feedback from Rodolfo Raya ... Best, Kris Kristen James Eberlein Chair, OASIS DITA Technical Committee OASIS Distinguished Contributor Principal consultant, Eberlein Consulting LLC www.eberleinconsulting.com +1 919 622-1501; kriseberlein (skype) -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: DITA grammars Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:52:13 -0300 From: Rodolfo Raya <rmraya@maxprograms.com> To: Kristen James Eberlein <kris@eberleinconsulting.com> Hello Kris, Moving DITA grammars to RelaxNG looks cool and a modern thing to do, but from my perspective as developer this was a bad idea. When a Java-based parser reads an XML file that declares a DTD or XSD grammar, the parser sets element attributes to their default values when the user doesn t explicitly set in the XML file. If the parser reads a DITA file, it automatically sets the @class attribute from the grammar, even if the author skipped it (most common case). Same with any attribute that has a default in the grammar. Reading an XML file that declares a RelaxNG grammar using a Java-based parser does not set skipped attributes to their default values. Reading a DITA file with RelaxNG grammar does not let you know the value of the @class attribute in its elements. My translation tools depend on the @class attribute to process user-defined elements. This is a problem when users try to adopt RelaxNG for their customized grammars. At least my tools can t support them today. It s not a new thing, the problem appeared long ago. So, the move to embrace RelaxNG creates problems for some tool vendors. It requires major changes in XML parsers and catalog managers. I really don t know if the DITA TC considered the libraries that developers use on different platforms, like .NET on Windows or Java. My impression is that the TC looked at authoring and publishing environments only. Take this email as a small contribution to the discussion on grammars. I m not requesting any change or reconsideration, just providing additional information. Regards, Rodolfo -- Rodolfo M. Raya https://www.maxprograms.com


  • 2.  RE: [dita] Fwd: DITA grammars

    Posted 06-22-2021 14:40




    To follow on this thread, Vasont s web CCMS is developed on DOTNET and relies on XSD.

     

    Deb Bissantz
    Manager of Content Services
    GlobalLink CCMS
    A TransPerfect Company
    t +1 717.793.3883
    Skype live:dbissant

     


    From: dita@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:dita@lists.oasis-open.org]
    On Behalf Of Kristen James Eberlein
    Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 8:36 AM
    To: DITA TC <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
    Subject: [dita] Fwd: DITA grammars


     
    Feedback from Rodolfo Raya ...

    Best,
    Kris

    Kristen James Eberlein
    Chair, OASIS DITA Technical Committee
    OASIS Distinguished Contributor
    Principal consultant, Eberlein Consulting LLC
    https://link.edgepilot.com/s/f17bccc5/YPbmlD6se0eup_TWkxilNQ?u=http://www.eberleinconsulting.com/
    +1 919 622-1501; kriseberlein (skype)






    -------- Forwarded Message --------




    Subject:


    DITA grammars




    Date:


    Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:52:13 -0300




    From:


    Rodolfo Raya <rmraya@maxprograms.com>




    To:


    Kristen James Eberlein
    <kris@eberleinconsulting.com>




     
    Hello Kris,
     
    Moving DITA grammars to RelaxNG looks cool and a modern thing to do, but from my perspective as developer this was a bad idea.
     
    When a Java-based parser reads an XML file that declares a DTD or XSD grammar, the parser sets element attributes to their default values when the user doesn t explicitly set in the XML file. If the parser reads a DITA file, it automatically
    sets the @class attribute from the grammar, even if the author skipped it (most common case). Same with any attribute that has a default in the grammar.
     
    Reading an XML file that declares a RelaxNG grammar using a Java-based parser does not set skipped attributes to their default values. Reading a DITA file with RelaxNG grammar does not let you know the value of the @class attribute in its
    elements.
     
    My translation tools depend on the @class attribute to process user-defined elements. This is a problem when users try to adopt RelaxNG for their customized grammars. At least my tools can t support them today. It s not a new thing, the
    problem appeared long ago.
     
    So, the move to embrace RelaxNG creates problems for some tool vendors. It requires major changes in XML parsers and catalog managers.
     
    I really don t know if the DITA TC considered the libraries that developers use on different platforms, like .NET on Windows or Java. My impression is that the TC looked at authoring and publishing environments only.
     
    Take this email as a small contribution to the discussion on grammars. I m not requesting any change or reconsideration, just providing additional information.
     
    Regards,
    Rodolfo


    -- 
    Rodolfo M. Raya
    https://link.edgepilot.com/s/6effaa80/-bXX3vpiO0CwrWFn4S_DEQ?u=https://www.maxprograms.com/


     



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  • 3.  Re: [dita] Fwd: DITA grammars

    Posted 06-22-2021 14:59
    Rodolfo is not correct. RNG provides for attribute defaulting (DITA depends on it) and I believe George Bina implemented support for it in the general Java RNG processing tools some years ago now.   As for not supporting XSD, another important issue and reason for not supporting it is that XSD 1.0 * is fundamentally broken * as specified with regard to the redefine feature, on which DITA XSDs as defined for DITA 1.x depend.   That is, using the same XSDs you may get different, an incompatible, results from different * conforming * XSD processors. It happens that Xerces behaves the way DITA needs but others do not (I think the .NET processor does not but I can t swear to it).   XSD 1.1 added the new override feature, which fixes the issue with redefine and provides a much better match to DITA s requirements, but I don t think there are many XSD 1.1 implementations out there.   I think Kris responses are the correct ones: RNG is normative, DTD is maintained by the TC, and XSDs are generatable.   That said, I think it s reasonable for the DITA community to maintain essentially the same XSDs we did for 1.x, which can be generated using the existing (or updated) rng2xsd transform I developed for DITA 1.3.   Cheers,   E.   -- Eliot Kimber http://contrext.com       From: <dita@lists.oasis-open.org> on behalf of Kristen James Eberlein <kris@eberleinconsulting.com> Date: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 9:35 AM To: DITA TC <dita@lists.oasis-open.org> Subject: [dita] Fwd: DITA grammars   Feedback from Rodolfo Raya ... Best, Kris Kristen James Eberlein Chair, OASIS DITA Technical Committee OASIS Distinguished Contributor Principal consultant, Eberlein Consulting LLC www.eberleinconsulting.com +1 919 622-1501; kriseberlein (skype) -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: DITA grammars Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:52:13 -0300 From: Rodolfo Raya <rmraya@maxprograms.com> To: Kristen James Eberlein <kris@eberleinconsulting.com>   Hello Kris,   Moving DITA grammars to RelaxNG looks cool and a modern thing to do, but from my perspective as developer this was a bad idea.   When a Java-based parser reads an XML file that declares a DTD or XSD grammar, the parser sets element attributes to their default values when the user doesn t explicitly set in the XML file. If the parser reads a DITA file, it automatically sets the @class attribute from the grammar, even if the author skipped it (most common case). Same with any attribute that has a default in the grammar.   Reading an XML file that declares a RelaxNG grammar using a Java-based parser does not set skipped attributes to their default values. Reading a DITA file with RelaxNG grammar does not let you know the value of the @class attribute in its elements.   My translation tools depend on the @class attribute to process user-defined elements. This is a problem when users try to adopt RelaxNG for their customized grammars. At least my tools can t support them today. It s not a new thing, the problem appeared long ago.   So, the move to embrace RelaxNG creates problems for some tool vendors. It requires major changes in XML parsers and catalog managers.   I really don t know if the DITA TC considered the libraries that developers use on different platforms, like .NET on Windows or Java. My impression is that the TC looked at authoring and publishing environments only.   Take this email as a small contribution to the discussion on grammars. I m not requesting any change or reconsideration, just providing additional information.   Regards, Rodolfo --  Rodolfo M. Raya https://www.maxprograms.com   --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php