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Subject: RE: [emergency] Re: Circle and Polygon
Automated emergency systems that 'forget' that
there is a different geo-referencing system in
use by an allied system? It's hard to make
a computer forget; it's easy to make it not notice.
Software is more likely to not notice a data error
if its designers assume one system holds for all
applications rather than building in validation checks.
"Without the spatial reference system pointer, we will not be able
to work across jurisdictional boundaries who use different coordinate
systems, or with many legacy data sources."
Interoperability is a transient state of information
ecosystems. Reliable partners manage transitions
equitably.
len
From: Ham, Gary A [mailto:hamg@BATTELLE.ORG]
I can state for the record that he military is at least expiimenting
with CAP. It is part of several ongoing trials in this year's Coalition
Waarefare Interoperability Demonstration (CWID) going on this very week.
From: David Danko [mailto:DDanko@esri.com]
I didn't mean to imply that NATO C2 would be using CAP. I just meant
that the military - having probably the most experience passing
coordinates around - has learned that using one CRS works the best for
passing coordinates. Although developed by the military - it's heavily
used outside the military. The International Civil Aviation Organization
(ICAO) has settled on WGS 84 for air navigation systems see
www.WGS84.com and it's the CRS used by GPS.
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=WGS%2084
I have seen it happen many times where people "forgot" or didn't realize
their information was in a different reference system. I was just
looking at this as a communication issue. In an emergency situation one
may not have the time to realize there is a miscommunication and go back
and fix it.
I agree we need to get the opinions of users - we should also include
some geodesist. I certainly don't know all the uses for CAP. It may very
well be used for high precision positioning where a local system may
work the best - we'll have to see what the users want.
Dave
David M. Danko
GIS Standards
Environmental Systems Research Institute, Inc.
8620 Westwood Center Drive
Vienna, VA 22182-2214
USA
E-mail: ddanko@esri.com
Tel: 703-506-9515 x 8011
Mobile: 703-989-1863
Fax: 703-506 9514
-----Original Message-----
From: Bullard, Claude L (Len) [mailto:len.bullard@intergraph.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:21 PM
To: Carl Reed
Cc: emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [emergency] Re: Circle and Polygon
1. That suggests that CAP is to be used for NATO C2.
It seems highly unlikely but I may be wrong. Even if so
see 2.
2. Having a single global coordinate reference is
desirable but cannot be enforced. Is it better to
have the option and it be denoted or to not have
an option and have either implementations that do
not denote their variance or implementations that
cannot use CAP?
It is usually a bad idea to attempt to enforce
political will through technical standards. It
creates resistance at every level of decision making.
This decision should be made by the stakeholders, so
it is a good idea to get many more opinions from those
who will be using CAP.
Art says this will remain open to discussion. It will
be wise to post a succinct description to as many of
the stakeholders as can be identified and get their
consensus. OTW, this decision for better or worse
will appear to have been made by the vendors represented
on the WG. If the stakes are as high as Mr. Danko suggests,
then it is worth taking to the users.
len
From: David Danko [mailto:DDanko@esri.com]
We agreed early on in CAP to stick to one global coordinate reference
system to remove all chance of mis-communication. I think this was/is
the right thing to do. NATO and most military coalitions that need to
interoperate have settled on this method. There have been many deadly
mistakes caused by a misunderstanding of CRSs.
If there is a requirement to use different reference systems I suggest
they be -in addition to - Or - it be very apparent that a non-standard
CRS is being used. Users should not be able to get to the coordinates
without knowing what CRS is being used.
Dave
David M. Danko
GIS Standards
Environmental Systems Research Institute, Inc.
8620 Westwood Center Drive
Vienna, VA 22182-2214
USA
E-mail: ddanko@esri.com
Tel: 703-506-9515 x 8011
Mobile: 703-989-1863
Fax: 703-506 9514
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Reed [mailto:creed@opengeospatial.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 12:42 PM
To: acb@incident.com
Cc: emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [emergency] Re: Circle and Polygon
Art -
You still appear to be missing the point. We can leave CAP and EDXL with
WGS 84 as the default (but not mandatory!) so that all existing
implementations work and the level of "simplicity" being sought is
maintained. We are suggesting optional elements that would allow folks
to use other than WGS 84 as the only CRS. This provides implementation
flexibility and allows different regions in the world to implement as
they see fit for their region. Cheers
Carl
> On Jun 15, 2005, at 6/15/05 12:12 AM, Renato Iannella wrote:
>> One of other key benefits from reusing GML is their use of spatial
>> reference system pointers. Without the spatial reference system
>> pointer, we will not be able
to
>> work
>> across jurisdictional boundaries who use different coordinate
>> systems, or with many legacy data sources.
>
> Again, I wonder whether that might just be making life unnecessarily
> difficult. As it is we specify a single, global coordinate system,
> and folks who use different ones can handle the necessary conversions.
>
> - Art
>
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