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Re: [emergency] Re: [emergency-comment] PPW letter re CAP

  • 1.  Re: [emergency] Re: [emergency-comment] PPW letter re CAP

    Posted 10-09-2003 16:42
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    Subject: Re: [emergency] Re: [emergency-comment] PPW letter re CAP


    Very well stated. While some areas, at the appropriate time, need to be
    drilled down into even further than you have most graciously done here,
    I agree on all points.
    
    Allen
    
    On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 11:03, Rex Brooks wrote:
    > Carl, Art, Allen, Elliot, et al,
    > 
    > Let me preface this with a note that I started responding to this 
    > yesterday, got busy, and also felt I should let some time go by and 
    > listen to others before returning to this. So I will leave some of my 
    > initial reply, and address a number of issues that have been raised, 
    > without including all of the the now long list of messages in this 
    > very vital thread. I will leave the specific thread to which I was 
    > responding. The others I will refer to in broad terms, so please 
    > excuse me if I get the attribution of a specific comment wrong.
    > 
    > First, we are not offering excuses, we are making a point of 
    > including stakeholders that have not been adequately representing 
    > themselves, by informing them of where we are in the process. Before 
    > Mr. Fulgate's letter on behalf of PPW, I had not heard a specific 
    > suggestion on how to deal with this issue. There may be a way to make 
    > this suggestion work by specifying that the optional mechanism use 
    > Mime Type declarations as part of text versions of binaries, which 
    > may also make it possible to skirt other issues. Another mechanism 
    > would be to have the option include SOAP, and SOAP with attachments, 
    > which may also provide one (but not necessarily to only) solution to 
    > the problem of including photos, video clips, audio clips, etc. I 
    > realize that this will not suit some applications, but remember that 
    > it is optional.
    > 
    > Art, Allen is right, I meant in my first reply, that this 
    > constituency had not been adequately represented by only using PPW 
    > and you, since their concerns are but one of many for you, and you 
    > have had your hands full with getting CAP to this point. You were 
    > right in that I did not express that in a clear way and so it seemed 
    > that I was saying that they were not represented at all. Mea Culpa.
    > 
    > I think Carl's suggestion is good, but it is also incumbent on us to 
    > get in contact with these folks if we can and let them know where we 
    > stand. I personally think that getting something out there for public 
    > review, and then making sure this audience gets the message is the 
    > best way to get them involved. I am not talking about PPW, but the TV 
    > people.
    > 
    > However, having said that, I also feel I should say that we are going 
    > to run smack into the ROYALTIES quagmire with the TV people, and we 
    > could spend the next year arguing about accepting or not accepting 
    > MPEG-4, and get no standard to use where we can actually use one now. 
    > We have the exact same problem with Flash. This is the main problem 
    > with the feature they suggest of adding an optional mechanism for 
    > adding binary content. OASIS IPR policy requires that any IPR claims 
    > by any parties contributing to the specification be made public 
    > before a standard can be considered for an OASIS-wide vote. I don't 
    > think we have a problem with going forward with the Committee 
    > Specification as it now stands, but this is an issue that we can put 
    > at the top of the list of public comments with which the TC would 
    > necessarily have to resolve before going forward to whichever of the 
    > next steps in the TC process we decide to follow after the initial 
    > 30-day public comment period. I should also say that we are not, I 
    > believe, required to limit this public comment period to 30 days, nor 
    > that we must immediately move on to a next stage immediately 
    > thereafter.
    > 
    > I doubt anyone is suggesting that perhaps we should put our work on 
    > indefinite hold until someone comes along to offer a completely 
    > acceptable proposal for handling this constituency? I thought the 
    > point of getting CAP out there was to start getting feedback and get 
    > a v1.0 that addresses the needs we have no proven that we are capable 
    > of addressing now. Maybe the imminence of having a standard that does 
    > not address their needs will stimulate them to do something tangible 
    > about it. However, I have been waiting for reliable RF statement out 
    > of MPEG-4 for five years now, and it still hasn't happened though I 
    > have been assured innumerable times that if I just go along and adopt 
    > their standards, it will all work out. I suspect the the governmental 
    > agencies in general will not accept MPEG-4. I doubt the European 
    > Union will accept it. And the Navy has said in the recent past that 
    > it won't accept MPEG-4.
    > 
    > One last thought, The TV folks, not PPW, have to be responsible for 
    > their own bailiwick. We can't do that for them, nor can we be held up 
    > indefinitely due to their situation.
    > 
    > I think we should move forward and combine the suggestions that Carl, 
    > Elliot and I have made for providing a way to include the Broadcast 
    > Media. We will probably have to do some more work on the spec and go 
    > through another 30-day public comment period, but maybe not.
    > 
    > My last thought is for Allen and the notion of breaking an 
    > application. I ran into this problem in another venue in OASIS and 
    > pointed out that applications have the ability to adapt a lot more 
    > easily than does the spec-writing process. Also, as you say, breaking 
    > does not necessarily mean that the whole app collapses, and when we 
    > get to finally defining a test suite we have the task of clearly 
    > deciding what the differences are between compliance and conformance, 
    > with conformance related ONLY to MUST statements. That's a 
    > particularly tricky distinction. To accommodate this we probably will 
    > need to institute a permanent Conformance SC, but that is a different 
    > matter. In any event, the app builders are represented pretty well, 
    > and you are doing a responsible job of representing their interests 
    > and yours.
    > 
    > I think I have covered most of the comments that I felt were 
    > potential deal-breakers. We are very close to a good and, more 
    > importantly, A VERY USEABLE SPEC. We can improve, indeed we are 
    > already tasked with improving it, but please, let's move forward.
    > 
    > Ciao,
    > Rex
    > 
    > 
    > At 2:59 PM -0600 10/8/03, Carl Reed wrote:
    > >Art -
    > >
    > >We run into these issues all the time in our specification process at the
    > >OGC. It is impossible to satisfy every requirement for every application in
    > >every industry. There is an interesting balance between getting a spec out
    > >for use and getting one out that is also useful! I think the old 80/20 rule
    > >applies.
    > >
    > >Anyway, perhaps a more positive way to position the CAP spec is to say that
    > >this is version 1 (one) and that future (new) requirements and change
    > >proposals will be considered and incorporated. This is the way we deal with
    > >the enhancement issue at the OGC. We accept change proposals, instantiate a
    > >spec Revision Working Group, work the suggested changes, and then put the
    > >modified spec up for member vote and adoption. Some of our specs have
    > >already gone through 5 or 6 revisions in 2 years. This does raise an issue
    > >of backwards compatibility and deprecation. But how is this different from
    > >any vibrant piece of technologies life cycle management?
    > >
    > >Cheers
    > >
    > >Carl
    > >
    > >