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SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHENUNDERSCORE SPACE

  • 1.  SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHENUNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 15:20 
    FYI to list

When drafting the OASIS Naming Guidelines, I initially included several detailed
rules (which could have been expressed via regex) to prohibit pathological
filenames and directory names: reviewers urged me to omit some of these
rules, saying "surely users would not do something like THAT..." or "you
can't legislate against everything funky..."

Here's pathological (in my book, YMMV), though the fact that it's a proposed
filename template has some bearing on the matter.  If users adopted the
template pattern, corresponding filenames would have four SPACE characters,
which are forbidden in the OASIS Library.

The message is posted here:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita-sidsc/200805/msg00011.html

and the filename is:

   DITA SIDSC __-__-__ teleconference minutes.dita

Actually, the character sequence

  'UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE'

gets trapped in one of the rules I managed to include in the Naming
Guidelines:

  "Filenames and directory names should not contain multiple consecutive
   punctuation characters"

Cheers,

Robin

PS  For other pathological URIs (I stopped collecting Kavi examples), see

   http://xml.coverpages.org/ADMIN/blanks/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robin Cover
OASIS, Chief Information Architect
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
http://xml.coverpages.org/


  • 2.  RE: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 15:38 
    Hi Robin,

  No one is suggesting this as a specification name. And yes, I will continue to
argue that as long as desktop operating systems allow the creation of filenames
with spaces, that is what most users will do. Not that web documents should have
spaces or underscores in the filename, but that users, when creating files on
their desktop, will create documents with spaces in the filename since it makes
them more legible. The filename itself is indicating placeholders for a date.
Now someone could gently suggest to Bob Beims or whoever created the template
that using DD-MM-YYYY or some other pattern might be more appropriate, but it
*does* make sense given the intent of the filename.

  When we roll out a system that *prevents* documents with spaces (or other bad
characters) in filenames, we will also *educate* users as to why they can't have
spaces in filenames, and how to create patterns that - while eliminating spaces
- also create meaningful filenames. You could start that education process now,
but as long as Kavi doesn't enforce it, it won't make a difference. You have to
time the education to the actual restriction for it to have the desired impact.

Mary
  

> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 3.  RE: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 16:05 
    In nearly all cases of file naming, url, uri and similar discussions, you'll
not hear anything of value from me.

But in this case, I'd point out that when using dates in a file name there
is an easy way have them sort in chronological order FileNameYYYYMMDD.
Maybe this is only an issue on your desktop, but figuring out this little
detail sure made my life easier.

>
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 4.  RE: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 16:26 
    Oh, more like this template for meeting minutes:
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/bpel4people-editors/download.php/27
858/Template%20-%20Draft%20Minutes%20-%20OASIS%20B4P%20TC%20Editors%20SC%20-%202
008MMDD.doc

which translates to:
Template - Draft Minutes - OASIS B4P TC Editors SC - 2008MMDD.doc
(I think)

Although I think having the date way at the end defeats the purpose of being
able to easily distinguish by date ;-)

> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 5.  Re: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 16:31 
    On Wednesday 21 May 2008 12:04:15 pm Scott McGrath wrote:
> In nearly all cases of file naming, url, uri and similar discussions,
> you'll not hear anything of value from me.
>
> But in this case, I'd point out that when using dates in a file name there
> is an easy way have them sort in chronological order FileNameYYYYMMDD.
> Maybe this is only an issue on your desktop, but figuring out this little
> detail sure made my life easier.

Bravo, I'm glad to see Scott leading good practice by his example.  That is 
such a good idea that ISO standardized it [1], and I have incorporated it 
into our guidelines for OASIS (staff) in creating filenames with dates [2]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
[2] http://ts.oasis-open.org/wiki/index.php/Oasis_Web_Page_Guidelines

It also helps disambiguate the regional difference between Europe and America 
where Europeans use the day first, and month second whereas Americans use the 
month first and day second (in short-hand format).

For example: 
10/31 is obviously (sarcasm) haloween, my birthday and the 31st day of October 
and lacking any year specificity.  (Europeans would write 31/10 )

04/01 is not obviously any particular date (Is it April 2001? The 4th day of 
January? The first day of April?)

2008-04-01 is precise

What Bob should have done is be more precise in his date (he used a two-digit 
year), and be more precise in his template to indicate placeholders 
(YYYY-MM-DD)


>
> >
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 6.  Re: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHENUNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 16:41 
    +1 for YYYY-MM-DD

On which, see ISO and W3C:

http://www.iso.org/iso/date_and_time_format
http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime (profile)

PS.  Poor Bob, I see that I inadvertently shortchanged him by one
UNDERSCORE.  His filename has:

SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE SPACE

Robin Cover
OASIS, Chief Information Architect
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
http://xml.coverpages.org/

-----------------

On Wed, 21 May 2008, Greg Rundlett wrote:

> On Wednesday 21 May 2008 12:04:15 pm Scott McGrath wrote:
>> In nearly all cases of file naming, url, uri and similar discussions,
>> you'll not hear anything of value from me.
>>
>> But in this case, I'd point out that when using dates in a file name there
>> is an easy way have them sort in chronological order FileNameYYYYMMDD.
>> Maybe this is only an issue on your desktop, but figuring out this little
>> detail sure made my life easier.
>
> Bravo, I'm glad to see Scott leading good practice by his example.  That is
> such a good idea that ISO standardized it [1], and I have incorporated it
> into our guidelines for OASIS (staff) in creating filenames with dates [2]
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
> [2] http://ts.oasis-open.org/wiki/index.php/Oasis_Web_Page_Guidelines
>
> It also helps disambiguate the regional difference between Europe and America
> where Europeans use the day first, and month second whereas Americans use the
> month first and day second (in short-hand format).
>
> For example:
> 10/31 is obviously (sarcasm) haloween, my birthday and the 31st day of October
> and lacking any year specificity.  (Europeans would write 31/10 )
>
> 04/01 is not obviously any particular date (Is it April 2001? The 4th day of
> January? The first day of April?)
>
> 2008-04-01 is precise
>
> What Bob should have done is be more precise in his date (he used a two-digit
> year), and be more precise in his template to indicate placeholders
> (YYYY-MM-DD)
>
>
>>
>>> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 7.  RE: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHENUNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 16:35 
    My FYI wasn't intended to launch any major or sideline discussions on file 
naming, but the following inline notes may provide useful followup.

On Wed, 21 May 2008, Mary McRae wrote:

> Hi Robin,
>
> No one is suggesting this as a specification name.

Nor was I: my memo does not use the word "specification", and the Naming
Guidelines apply to all resources installed in the OASIS Open Library.

> And yes, I will continue to
> argue that as long as desktop operating systems allow the creation of filenames
> with spaces, that is what most users will do. Not that web documents should have
> spaces or underscores in the filename, but that users, when creating files on
> their desktop, will create documents with spaces in the filename since it makes
> them more legible.

It's a curious argument, though perhaps true for users who think that a filename
formed from the first dozen or so characters from sentence one of a textual 
document "is probably OK as a filename."  I have never been seduced into 
thinking that running prose sentence-style makes a good filename.

> The filename itself is indicating placeholders for a date.
> Now someone could gently suggest to Bob Beims or whoever created the template
> that using DD-MM-YYYY or some other pattern might be more appropriate, but it
> *does* make sense given the intent of the filename.
>
>  When we roll out a system that *prevents* documents with spaces (or other bad
> characters) in filenames, we will also *educate* users as to why they can't have
> spaces in filenames, and how to create patterns that - while eliminating spaces
> - also create meaningful filenames. You could start that education process now,
> but as long as Kavi doesn't enforce it, it won't make a difference. You have to
> time the education to the actual restriction for it to have the desired impact.

Hopefully, contextual help in the application will provide the key locus for
education: I never imagined needing to have an educational program for how to
adapt to the OASIS Library paradigm shift.

Analogy, which should work for all users who do online banking or use any
forms-based applications.  Most forms processing operates on constrained
strings for some fields, e.g., a phone number.  While one user might think
that use of parenthesis characters enhances readability, +1 (972) 296-1783,
if the field gloss says "enter only numeric characters and hyphens", the
user can try all day, over and over again, entering SPACE, PLUS, LEFT-PAREN,
RIGHT-PAREN -- and the submitting the form will result in failure, every
time, for hundreds of attempts, until the user gets the picture.  Same
with filenames, which are similar to userID strings: if my userID is
'robincover' then probably 'r obin cover' will fail.

Contextual help and rich hypertext should do the trick, I think.

-robin


Robin Cover
OASIS, Chief Information Architect
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
http://xml.coverpages.org/


>
> Mary
>

>
>> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 8.  RE: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 16:49 
    Only if we have the ability to rename files on the fly (which I hope we will!).
But we should educate them as to why it's important. And then I'll relate the
story of trying to purchase tickets online for a concert to be held in northern
France. It wouldn't accept the telephone number since it was pre-programmed to
recognize a certain pattern, and therefore kept rejecting the order. She had to
actually use that same telephone to call them - in France - from the USA - to
get tickets. 

> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 9.  Re: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCOREUNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

    Posted 05-21-2008 22:16 
    

  


Just a couple of thoughts.

    
The late, lamented Artifact Standard Identification Scheme for Metadata
(ASIS) also addressed the ISO date standard, which has two forms, one
with hyphens, one without, and with the four digit year (that'll last
for the next 7,992 years or so). So yes, do it exactly as Scott and
Greg said.

    
Mary's note on renaming and filename format are well taken: but even
with saying what's required, there's a training issue. The TAB and
broader discussion on AN showed little support for structured names,
and similarly little for hyphens being restricted to inter-component
separators.

    
The restriction against spaces was actually not much an issue, as I
recall.

    
There's also a system mapping issue, when the consumer of the Library
downloads a file, which suggests more specific restrictions on
characters like '/', '\', ':' and (sometimes) '.'. (Linux, Windows, Mac
OSX, Mac OS <= 9).

    
I'd like to re-re-re-raise the question of permanence and the
(explicit) action of publication. I see the minutes template, I don't
think of that as an undying artifact that OASIS must preserve forever.
The minutes (as amended and evolved) are long-term artifacts, but
sketches and templates IMHO are not long-term artifacts.

    
What are the requirements (in the current form) for publication
mechanisms? It sounds like there's a concern that all temporary and
emphemeral documents (those not in email and not voted on by the TC)
will also share the doc management system.

    
Could be a disconnect between intended use, publication model, and
"store anything anybody gives me, regardless of the name." So on first
blush, the broader issues need to be addressed first.

    
bill cox

    
Mary McRae wrote:

    4834525d.2686460a.6344.0a61@mx.google.com" type="cite">
  
    Only if we have the ability to rename files on the fly (which I hope we will!).
But we should educate them as to why it's important. And then I'll relate the
story of trying to purchase tickets online for a concert to be held in northern
France. It wouldn't accept the telephone number since it was pre-programmed to
recognize a certain pattern, and therefore kept rejecting the order. She had to
actually use that same telephone to call them - in France - from the USA - to
get tickets. 

  
    
  
    
    

    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
    
                                                
    
    
    
      
    Hi Robin,

No one is suggesting this as a specification name.
      
    
    
    
    
    Nor was I: my memo does not use the word "specification", and the Naming
Guidelines apply to all resources installed in the OASIS Open Library.

    
    
    
    
      
    And yes, I will continue to
argue that as long as desktop operating systems allow the creation of
      
    
    
    
    
    filenames
    
    
    
    
      
    with spaces, that is what most users will do. Not that web documents
      
    
    
    
    
    should have
    
    
    
    
      
    spaces or underscores in the filename, but that users, when creating
      
    
    
    
    
    files on
    
    
    
    
      
    their desktop, will create documents with spaces in the filename since it
      
    
    
    
    
    makes
    
    
    
    
      
    them more legible.
      
    
    
    
    
    It's a curious argument, though perhaps true for users who think that a
filename
formed from the first dozen or so characters from sentence one of a textual
document "is probably OK as a filename."  I have never been seduced into
thinking that running prose sentence-style makes a good filename.

    
    
    
    
      
    The filename itself is indicating placeholders for a date.
Now someone could gently suggest to Bob Beims or whoever created the
      
    
    
    
    
    template
    
    
    
    
      
    that using DD-MM-YYYY or some other pattern might be more appropriate,
      
    
    
    
    
    but it
    
    
    
    
      
    *does* make sense given the intent of the filename.

 When we roll out a system that *prevents* documents with spaces (or
      
    
    
    
    
    other bad
    
    
    
    
      
    characters) in filenames, we will also *educate* users as to why they
      
    
    
    
    
    can't have
    
    
    
    
      
    spaces in filenames, and how to create patterns that - while eliminating
      
    
    
    
    
    spaces
    
    
    
    
      
    - also create meaningful filenames. You could start that education
      
    
    
    
    
    process now,
    
    
    
    
      
    but as long as Kavi doesn't enforce it, it won't make a difference. You
      
    
    
    
    
    have to
    
    
    
    
      
    time the education to the actual restriction for it to have the desired
      
    
    
    
    
    impact.

Hopefully, contextual help in the application will provide the key locus
for
education: I never imagined needing to have an educational program for how
to
adapt to the OASIS Library paradigm shift.

Analogy, which should work for all users who do online banking or use any
forms-based applications.  Most forms processing operates on constrained
strings for some fields, e.g., a phone number.  While one user might think
that use of parenthesis characters enhances readability, +1 (972) 296-1783,
if the field gloss says "enter only numeric characters and hyphens", the
user can try all day, over and over again, entering SPACE, PLUS, LEFT-
PAREN,
RIGHT-PAREN -- and the submitting the form will result in failure, every
time, for hundreds of attempts, until the user gets the picture.  Same
with filenames, which are similar to userID strings: if my userID is
'robincover' then probably 'r obin cover' will fail.

Contextual help and rich hypertext should do the trick, I think.

-robin


Robin Cover
OASIS, Chief Information Architect
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
http://xml.coverpages.org/


    
    
    
    
      
    Mary

      
    
    
    
    
    
      
    
        

    Original Message-----
From: Robin Cover [mailto:robin@oasis-open.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 11:19 AM
To: OASIS Library Review List
Cc: Robin Cover
Subject: [oasis-library-review] SPACE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN
UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE SPACE

FYI to list

When drafting the OASIS Naming Guidelines, I initially included several
detailed
rules (which could have been expressed via regex) to prohibit
        
    
      
    
    
    
    
    pathological
    
    
    
    
      
    
        
    filenames and directory names: reviewers urged me to omit some of these
rules, saying "surely users would not do something like THAT..." or "you
can't legislate against everything funky..."

Here's pathological (in my book, YMMV), though the fact that it's a
proposed
filename template has some bearing on the matter.  If users adopted the
template pattern, corresponding filenames would have four SPACE
        
    
      
    
    
    
    
    characters,
    
    
    
    
      
    
        
    which are forbidden in the OASIS Library.

The message is posted here:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita-sidsc/200805/msg00011.html

and the filename is:

   DITA SIDSC __-__-__ teleconference minutes.dita

Actually, the character sequence

  'UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE HYPHEN UNDERSCORE'

gets trapped in one of the rules I managed to include in the Naming
Guidelines:

  "Filenames and directory names should not contain multiple consecutive
   punctuation characters"

Cheers,

Robin

PS  For other pathological URIs (I stopped collecting Kavi examples),
        
    
      
    
    
    
    
    see
    
    
    
    
      
    
        
       http://xml.coverpages.org/ADMIN/blanks/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
        
    
      
    
    
    
    
    --
    
    
    
    
      
    
        
    Robin Cover
OASIS, Chief Information Architect
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
http://xml.coverpages.org/

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    -- 

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