OASIS Library Review

Robin has been browsing around the KT library and commented on changed 
permissions with some of his earlier test files.  The entire permissions 
system has been replaced to tie into the Kavi authentication system.

The initial installation of KT had basically unlimited permissions for 
everyone so you could browse the system and see it at full functionality.  
Now, you should be logging in with your Kavi credentials and the fwsi and 
dev-testing TC folders are setup with appropriate permissions given to TC 
members and TC administrators.  Please do your testing in there.

Also, most of Robin's tests seem to be testing naming guidelines.  The naming 
guidelines aren't implemented.  They can't be implemented as written because 
they are too vague in some spots and that's a discussion for another day.  
When we get it to concrete rules, we can code it.  Currently, the naming 
guidelines are setup only as a light check.  You can't publish a non-spec 
document that has the word spec in the name.  You can upload it, but you 
cannot publish it until you rename it.

Anyway, we need a presentation to go over the recent changes and the current 
status of the prototype.  I just wanted to send this quickly, because of 
Robin's requests for help with permissions changes last Friday.

-- 
Regards,
Neil Schelly

W: 978-667-5115 x213
M: 508-410-4776

Senior Systems Administrator
OASIS http://www.oasis-open.org
"Advancing open standards for the information society."

Neil, thanks for updates. A couple minor followups inline below.

On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Neil Schelly wrote:

> Robin has been browsing around the KT library and commented on changed
> permissions with some of his earlier test files.  The entire permissions
> system has been replaced to tie into the Kavi authentication system.

I managed to figure that out after some experimentation

>
> The initial installation of KT had basically unlimited permissions for
> everyone so you could browse the system and see it at full functionality.
> Now, you should be logging in with your Kavi credentials and the fwsi and
> dev-testing TC folders are setup with appropriate permissions given to TC
> members and TC administrators.  Please do your testing in there.
>
> Also, most of Robin's tests seem to be testing naming guidelines.  The naming
> guidelines aren't implemented.  They can't be implemented as written because
> they are too vague in some spots and that's a discussion for another day.
> When we get it to concrete rules, we can code it.  Currently, the naming
> guidelines are setup only as a light check.  You can't publish a non-spec
> document that has the word spec in the name.  You can upload it, but you
> cannot publish it until you rename it.

We'll need to have that discussion.  For example, the Naming Guidelines place
no constraints upon TC members as to the use or non-use of the substring
'spec' in a filename, whether that file(name) is associated with a designated
"spec-track" document or not.  Thanks for clarification about the current
non-implementation of the NG.  Any of my tests are likely to be based
upon minimum assumptions -- as in "this is possibly how the system would
behave out-of-the-box-without-without-major-obvious-changes".  It's
helpful to be able to see how KT behaves, even if the test install is
in limbo/transition.

>
> Anyway, we need a presentation to go over the recent changes and the current
> status of the prototype.  I just wanted to send this quickly, because of
> Robin's requests for help with permissions changes last Friday.

Thanks.

>
> -- 
> Regards,
> Neil Schelly
>
> W: 978-667-5115 x213
> M: 508-410-4776
>
> Senior Systems Administrator
> OASIS http://www.oasis-open.org
> "Advancing open standards for the information society."
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that
> generates this mail.  You may a link to this group and all your TCs in OASIS
> at:
> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php
>
>

Sorry, I should have documented the statement

> the Naming Guidelines place
> no constraints upon TC members as to the use or non-use of the substring
> 'spec' in a filename, whether that file(name) is associated with a designated
> "spec-track" document or not.

Here's the principal section: note, e.g., the absence of any directive about 
(non-) use of the substring 'spec' (or 'specs') in any filename

http://docs.oasis-open.org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/resourceNamingV07.html#nameConstruction

and (e.g.,)

"Componentized filenames (e.g., IETF-style filenames, using hyphen-separated 
metadata factoids) are allowed but not required"

That null rule is related to an explicit conclusion from the membership (two reviews)
per:

http://docs.oasis-open.org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/resourceNamingCommentaryV07.html#nameConstruction

"A significant conclusion emerged from the two public reviews
of AIR (July 2005) and ASIS (February 2006): the OASIS
membership does not welcome a policy mandating the use of
structured filenames which use hyphen-delimited metadata
components, IETF-style. In some cases it may be natural and
desirable to use some "metadata" information in filenames
and URIs, but we heard strong negative reaction against the
early proposal to make a componentized schema required. "

See also the spec URI examples provided in this section:

http://docs.oasis-open.org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/metadata03.html#specURIs

examples like:

http://docs.oasis-open.org/health/virus-ml/virusML-1.html
http://docs.oasis-open.org/exampleTC/nutMarkup/4.0/pr3.5/nut.html
http://docs.oasis-open.org/exampleTC/fruitMarkup/v2/fruit.pdf

-rcc

Robin Cover
OASIS, Chief Information Architect
Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink
http://xml.coverpages.org/


On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Robin Cover wrote:

> Neil, thanks for updates. A couple minor followups inline below.
>
> On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Neil Schelly wrote:
>
>> Robin has been browsing around the KT library and commented on changed
>> permissions with some of his earlier test files.  The entire permissions
>> system has been replaced to tie into the Kavi authentication system.
>
> I managed to figure that out after some experimentation
>
>> 
>> The initial installation of KT had basically unlimited permissions for
>> everyone so you could browse the system and see it at full functionality.
>> Now, you should be logging in with your Kavi credentials and the fwsi and
>> dev-testing TC folders are setup with appropriate permissions given to TC
>> members and TC administrators.  Please do your testing in there.
>> 
>> Also, most of Robin's tests seem to be testing naming guidelines.  The 
>> naming
>> guidelines aren't implemented.  They can't be implemented as written 
>> because
>> they are too vague in some spots and that's a discussion for another day.
>> When we get it to concrete rules, we can code it.  Currently, the naming
>> guidelines are setup only as a light check.  You can't publish a non-spec
>> document that has the word spec in the name.  You can upload it, but you
>> cannot publish it until you rename it.
>
> We'll need to have that discussion.  For example, the Naming Guidelines place
> no constraints upon TC members as to the use or non-use of the substring
> 'spec' in a filename, whether that file(name) is associated with a designated
> "spec-track" document or not.  Thanks for clarification about the current
> non-implementation of the NG.  Any of my tests are likely to be based
> upon minimum assumptions -- as in "this is possibly how the system would
> behave out-of-the-box-without-without-major-obvious-changes".  It's
> helpful to be able to see how KT behaves, even if the test install is
> in limbo/transition.
>
>> 
>> Anyway, we need a presentation to go over the recent changes and the 
>> current
>> status of the prototype.  I just wanted to send this quickly, because of
>> Robin's requests for help with permissions changes last Friday.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> 
>> -- 
>> Regards,
>> Neil Schelly
>> 
>> W: 978-667-5115 x213
>> M: 508-410-4776
>> 
>> Senior Systems Administrator
>> OASIS http://www.oasis-open.org
>> "Advancing open standards for the information society."
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that
>> generates this mail.  You may a link to this group and all your TCs in 
>> OASIS
>> at:
>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php
>> 
>> 
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that
> generates this mail.  You may a link to this group and all your TCs in OASIS
> at:
> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php 
>

On Monday 31 March 2008 10:41, Robin Cover wrote:
> Sorry, I should have documented the statement
>
> > the Naming Guidelines place
> > no constraints upon TC members as to the use or non-use of the substring
> > 'spec' in a filename, whether that file(name) is associated with a
> > designated "spec-track" document or not.
>
> Here's the principal section: note, e.g., the absence of any directive
> about (non-) use of the substring 'spec' (or 'specs') in any filename

I'm not looking to have that discussion over email.  I've read the docs.  I 
know that the word spec is not some reserved keyword.  I just setup to 
demonstrate naming guidelines functionality by making a rule that's easy to 
see and play with.  This is a proof of concept and nothing more.

-- 
Regards,
Neil Schelly

W: 978-667-5115 x213
M: 508-410-4776

Senior Systems Administrator
OASIS http://www.oasis-open.org
"Advancing open standards for the information society."

On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Neil Schelly wrote:

> On Monday 31 March 2008 10:41, Robin Cover wrote:
>> Sorry, I should have documented the statement
>>
>>> the Naming Guidelines place
>>> no constraints upon TC members as to the use or non-use of the substring
>>> 'spec' in a filename, whether that file(name) is associated with a
>>> designated "spec-track" document or not.
>>
>> Here's the principal section: note, e.g., the absence of any directive
>> about (non-) use of the substring 'spec' (or 'specs') in any filename
>
> I'm not looking to have that discussion over email.  I've read the docs.  I
> know that the word spec is not some reserved keyword.  I just setup to
> demonstrate naming guidelines functionality by making a rule that's easy to
> see and play with.  This is a proof of concept and nothing more.

OK, thanks for clarification.  Makes sense.

In terms of a broad heuristic (and in reference to what you wrote) about
a prototype POC:

> You can't publish a non-spec document that has the word spec
> in the name. You can upload it, but you cannot publish it
> until you rename it.

I don't recall any actual "word"-based constraints of any kind, at the
level of filename component (other than general commensurability
and the filename "extensions" [which are not words]). But I could
be forgetting something...

As a test, your proof-of-concept would presumably show substring regex parsing
for filename (substituting '--' for 'spec') -- that a user could be allowed to
upload a file with filename "rights--rule05.html" but (because
of naming rule violation) the system would not allow publication
of the resource matching this filename until the filename error
condition was addressed.

Ironically (maybe) the simplest part of the library application
is what people frequently talk about as the "upload" tool(s),
under the rubric "file upload."  While the system needs to
manage files at some level, the real intelligence of the
system (and the challenges to use of shrink-wrap boxed software)
is the need to manage information at levels higher than "file",
where the key semantics of the application space are defined.

That's what David Krauth worked on a good bit -- because it's
way harder (and more important) than "file" management.

More on this anon...

- Robin

>
> -- 
> Regards,
> Neil Schelly
>
> W: 978-667-5115 x213
> M: 508-410-4776
>
> Senior Systems Administrator
> OASIS http://www.oasis-open.org
> "Advancing open standards for the information society."
>

On Monday 31 March 2008 11:14, Robin Cover wrote:
> I don't recall any actual "word"-based constraints of any kind, at the
> level of filename component (other than general commensurability
> and the filename "extensions" [which are not words]). But I could
> be forgetting something...

This conversation is degrading because we haven't presented things.  

There were rules about filenaming - I'm sure of it.  There were other rules 
too according to file placement and approval and syntax and stuff like that 
is also demonstrated in the prototype.

Files are scanned for viruses at upload time.  They can equally be scanned for 
XML completeness or anything else we can reasonably automate.

The stages of the workflows can be restricted based on easily programmed 
checks, regex or otherwise, on any metadata, including file filename.  I 
setup the filename check as a proof of this, not anything else.  We can 
include all rules.

> That's what David Krauth worked on a good bit -- because it's
> way harder (and more important) than "file" management.

Seriously, with as much work as I've done so far, hearing anyone offer any 
additional value to what he did is just insulting.  Unless you have something 
to show for all the work he did here, please stop saying this.  He helped 
open up conversation a lot, but actually produced very little.  The best we 
have to go on so far is a long listing of rules and processes that are 
unfortunately still difficult to follow and impossible to implement.  And an 
email conversation thread about this will get out of hand, so I don't want to 
have it here.

-- 
Regards,
Neil Schelly

W: 978-667-5115 x213
M: 508-410-4776

Senior Systems Administrator
OASIS http://www.oasis-open.org
"Advancing open standards for the information society."

Guys, two things:

a) Thanks for having this discussion in this list rather than as a series
of personal emails.

b) Do not go into personal issues. From where I stand, you are obviously
(to me) talking at cross-purposes and hurting each other for no reason.

c) [ok, three things] If this is not to be an email thread, Neil, what
is it going to be? Would you like me to set up a phone meeting for all
concerned? How soon should that meeting be?

On 03/31/2008 09:19 AM, Neil Schelly wrote:
> On Monday 31 March 2008 11:14, Robin Cover wrote:
>> I don't recall any actual "word"-based constraints of any kind, at the
>> level of filename component (other than general commensurability
>> and the filename "extensions" [which are not words]). But I could
>> be forgetting something...
> 
> This conversation is degrading because we haven't presented things.  
> 
> There were rules about filenaming - I'm sure of it.  There were other rules 
> too according to file placement and approval and syntax and stuff like that 
> is also demonstrated in the prototype.
> 
> Files are scanned for viruses at upload time.  They can equally be scanned for 
> XML completeness or anything else we can reasonably automate.
> 
> The stages of the workflows can be restricted based on easily programmed 
> checks, regex or otherwise, on any metadata, including file filename.  I 
> setup the filename check as a proof of this, not anything else.  We can 
> include all rules.
> 
>> That's what David Krauth worked on a good bit -- because it's
>> way harder (and more important) than "file" management.
> 
> Seriously, with as much work as I've done so far, hearing anyone offer any 
> additional value to what he did is just insulting.  Unless you have something 
> to show for all the work he did here, please stop saying this.  He helped 
> open up conversation a lot, but actually produced very little.  The best we 
> have to go on so far is a long listing of rules and processes that are 
> unfortunately still difficult to follow and impossible to implement.  And an 
> email conversation thread about this will get out of hand, so I don't want to 
> have it here.
> 

-- 
Eduardo Gutentag        |    e-mail: eduardo.gutentag@Sun.COM
Technology Director     |    Phone:  +1 510 550 4616 (internal x31442)
Corporate Standards     |    Sun Microsystems Inc.
              W3C AC Rep / W3C AB / OASIS BoD
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