OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

Dear TC members,

please find attached an alternative proposal for the "Proposal for clarification, enhancement and normative examples for
text:list and text:numbered paragraphs in ODF1.2" that the TC may want to consider.

I'm happy to work on a consensus based on the two proposals.

~Florian

Hi Florian,

in order to work towards a consensus, I strongly suggest that you, 
instead of providing a new proposal, state what you would like to have 
changed or added to the existing proposal at

http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200703/msg00172.html

This is the proposal that several TC members had worked on for several 
months, and that was the center of our discussions during the last two 
weeks.

If you nevertheless wish to provide your own proposal, then please state 
clearly what the differences between your proposal and the other 
proposal are, so that those TC members that did not follow the 
discussions can easily see where the differences are.

Thank you very much for your cooperation.

Michael

Florian Reuter wrote:
> Dear TC members,
> 
> please find attached an alternative proposal for the "Proposal for clarification, enhancement and normative examples for
> text:list and text:numbered paragraphs in ODF1.2" that the TC may want to consider.
> 
> I'm happy to work on a consensus based on the two proposals.
> 
> ~Florian


-- 
Michael Brauer, Technical Architect Software Engineering
StarOffice/OpenOffice.org
Sun Microsystems GmbH             Nagelsweg 55
D-20097 Hamburg, Germany          michael.brauer@sun.com
http://sun.com/staroffice         +49 40 23646 500
http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS

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Geschaeftsfuehrer: Marcel Schneider, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering

On Friday 16 March 2007 09:58, Florian Reuter wrote:
> Dear TC members,
>
> please find attached an alternative proposal for the "Proposal for
> clarification, enhancement and normative examples for text:list and
> text:numbered paragraphs in ODF1.2" that the TC may want to consider.

I have problems with this;
First it invalidates an already existing consensus among many of the TC 
members.

I have problems with several items;
*  "ODF 1.2 numbering should be independent from an applications counter 
implementation
 "Applications can basically follow several strategies when maintaining the 
internal counters. Together with the text:start-value of the list style the 
choice of the internal strategy may have a serious impact on the resulting 
numbering."

There is no case for this statement. If an application wants to support ODF 
style counting, more then the import filter *may* have to be altered. 
Features may have to be added.
Please remove that clause

* "Changing the number formatting of a list is current definetly not possible 
in ODF1.0/ODF1.1."

Actually, it is.  And KWord is already doing it as proof of that point.

*  "Clarify the description for continue-numbering"
  "If the value of the attribute is true and the numbering style of the 
preceding list is different to the current list, the numbers of the nearest 
preceeding list with the same list style is continued."

This proposal gives me problems on several items;
numbered paragraphs don't know about a preceding list as they are paragraphs, 
not lists. This means that the requirement for the same list style has the 
effect that you can no longer do the thing the rest of the paragraph states 
should be possible. That is; mixing styles in a list.


* "The relationship between a text:list and a sequence of 
text:numbered-paragraphs is established by the text:style-name."

It is unwanted to have a style determine content.  Changing a style should 
change the markup thoughout the document, as was the idea behind styles. 
Altering the style associated with a particular list to be different from the 
preceding list makes it harder to change the look and feel of a document as a 
whole.

* Normative examples.
Unfortunately various of the numbered paragraph examples do not reflect the 
actual usage by the only application that reads/writes those. I suggest you 
study that application and come up with examples that closer resemble the 
actual real world usage. Backwards compatibility is very important and should 
not be ignored by reinterpreting rules after the fact.

* Using the concept of continuing the numbering by default all through the 
document does not reflect real world usage of ODF so far. Especially wrt 
numbered paragraphs. The TC has had at least 5 people speak up over the last 
week stating that assuming one style means one list does not work for them.
Please change your proposal to reflect that opinion.

Cheers!
-- 
Thomas Zander

Florian Reuter wrote:
> Dear TC members,
> 
> please find attached an alternative proposal for the "Proposal for clarification, enhancement and normative examples for
> text:list and text:numbered paragraphs in ODF1.2" that the TC may want to consider.
> 
> I'm happy to work on a consensus based on the two proposals.
> 
> ~Florian

Hi Florian,

First, my opinion is not, that you have worked on a consensus. 
Especially, in the last two weeks in my opinion you only posted 
destructive comments and questions about the existing proposal and that 
you didn't answer the questions that other TC members had asked you. I 
didn't recognize any constructive comment/work on the existing proposal. 
  Your posting of the alternative proposal without saying, what are the 
differences to the existing one and what's in your view is better than 
the existing one, confirms my view, that you have no interest in working 
on a consensus.

However, I don't want to follow your habit. Thus, I've got a look at 
your proposal. Following are some comments and concerns. I ask you to 
consider these and to give reply respectively clarification:

- ad your proposed change to chapter "4.3.4 Numbered Paragraphs":
Currently, no list style is needed define a list using the