OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

Greetings!

One quick comment on the "default" values in the RELAX-NG schema.

While Michael is correct about the status of those "default" values from 
a RELAX-NG perspective, to what degree are those values normative for an 
implementation of ODF?

In other words, if the default value of table:print is "true," is a 
conforming ODF application required to print all tables?

That is to say that the ODF standard requires the treatment of that 
attribute as though it has a "true" value. That is it is unnecessary for 
an application to parse the schema as we have declared in the ODF 
standard the default value for that attribute.

Hope everyone is at the start of a great week!

Patrick

-- 
Patrick Durusau
patrick@durusau.net
Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
Acting Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
Co-Editor, OpenDocument Format (OASIS, ISO/IEC 26300)

I called in late yesterday. I also admitted
that it is not the best solution to define default values from the RELAX-NG
perspective, but the problem is still valid. Even if the standard does
not define it, the ODF applications actually will have default settings
in its implementation logic. Default values do not disappear even if we
do no define it. 

As to the styles inheritance, I do not
think that it will necessarily be a problem. Default value is only valid
when there is no value defined, which could include the attributes inherited
from parent styles.



Best Regards,

Helen Yue(Zhi Yu)






From:
Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>

To:
office TC <office@lists.oasis-open.org>

Date:
09/24/2007 11:38 PM

Subject:
[office] Default values





Greetings!


One quick comment on the "default" values in the RELAX-NG schema.


While Michael is correct about the status of those "default"
values from

a RELAX-NG perspective, to what degree are those values normative for an

implementation of ODF?


In other words, if the default value of table:print is "true,"
is a

conforming ODF application required to print all tables?


That is to say that the ODF standard requires the treatment of that

attribute as though it has a "true" value. That is it is unnecessary
for

an application to parse the schema as we have declared in the ODF

standard the default value for that attribute.


Hope everyone is at the start of a great week!


Patrick


--

Patrick Durusau

patrick@durusau.net

Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34

Acting Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)

Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)

Co-Editor, OpenDocument Format (OASIS, ISO/IEC 26300)

I called in late yesterday. I also admitted
that it is not the best solution to define default values from the RELAX-NG
perspective, but the problem is still valid. Even if the standard does
not define it, the ODF applications actually will have default settings
in its implementation logic.

As to the styles inheritance, I'm thinking
that it is possibly not necessarily a problem. Default value is only valid
when there is no value defined, which could include the attributes inherited
from parent styles.

Best Regards,

Helen Yue(Zhi Yu)






From:
Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>

To:
office TC <office@lists.oasis-open.org>

Date:
09/24/2007 11:38 PM

Subject:
[office] Default values





Greetings!


One quick comment on the "default" values in the RELAX-NG schema.


While Michael is correct about the status of those "default"
values from

a RELAX-NG perspective, to what degree are those values normative for an

implementation of ODF?


In other words, if the default value of table:print is "true,"
is a

conforming ODF application required to print all tables?


That is to say that the ODF standard requires the treatment of that

attribute as though it has a "true" value. That is it is unnecessary
for

an application to parse the schema as we have declared in the ODF

standard the default value for that attribute.


Hope everyone is at the start of a great week!


Patrick


--

Patrick Durusau

patrick@durusau.net

Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34

Acting Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)

Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)

Co-Editor, OpenDocument Format (OASIS, ISO/IEC 26300)

On Monday 24 September 2007 17:29:13 Patrick Durusau wrote:
> One quick comment on the "default" values in the RELAX-NG schema.
>
> While Michael is correct about the status of those "default" values from
> a RELAX-NG perspective, to what degree are those values normative for an
> implementation of ODF?

Default values should be defined on XML level. This means that if I have an 
attribute that it has a default value, but an element should not have a 
default value.

Or, more specifically;



1) you can define that 'bar' if omitted has the default value of "1". Meaning 
that the above is exactly the same as:
  
2) you can not define an element to be implied present. So you can not shorten 
the xml fragment in some way to omit the 

Hi Thomas,

I agree with your final assertion that an application should not need to 
write out default values.

Saying that the attribute value is implied is however a bit misleading, 
as the semantic of an implied attribute is defined by the XML spec. As 
such, any time you omit the element, the parser would be required to 
imply the presence of the attribute with the default value. This works 
against the inheritance semantics which are defined for styles in ODF.

But I guess this is just terminology. I think we agree, that the 
application should list defaults for style properties. Then, when a 
certain property is resolved along the ancestors of some applied style 
and isn't found, the default is assumed. It's just that this can't be 
expressed directly with XML/RelaxNG constructs and needs to be defined 
by us.

Cheers,
Lars

Thomas Zander wrote:
> On Monday 24 September 2007 17:29:13 Patrick Durusau wrote:
>> One quick comment on the "default" values in the RELAX-NG schema.
>>
>> While Michael is correct about the status of those "default" values from
>> a RELAX-NG perspective, to what degree are those values normative for an
>> implementation of ODF?
> 
> Default values should be defined on XML level. This means that if I have an 
> attribute that it has a default value, but an element should not have a 
> default value.
> 
> Or, more specifically;
> 
> 
> 
> 1) you can define that 'bar' if omitted has the default value of "1". Meaning 
> that the above is exactly the same as:
>   
> 2) you can not define an element to be implied present. So you can not shorten 
> the xml fragment in some way to omit the