OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

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  • 1.  Re: [office] Groups - Comparison of default styles(default-styles.ods) uploaded

    Posted 03-26-2008 08:50 
    Ming Fei Jia wrote:
> It seems most of values use "in" instead of "cm" as unit for length.

You are right. But at least in OpenOffice.org, the measurement unit that
is used in ODF depends on the measurement unit that is selected for the
UI. If measures are displayed in inch, then the unit that is used in ODF
is "in". If measures are displayed in "cm", then "cm" are used in ODF.
That means that it depends on the unit setting in the UI that was
active when saving the defaults whether they are stored in inch or cm.
We could also use only inch, or only cm, if we want.

So, the question is actually what the preferred measurement unit for an
international standard would be, or if there is such a preference at all.

Related to this is the question whether and how we define defaults for
those properties that may have locale dependent values. I have suggested
already that we don't specify defaults for the page size, because there
are at least Legal and A4 paper dimensions. Assuming A4 as default won't
work very well for countries that usually use only Legal paper, and vice
versa. However, there seem to be several properties that depend on the
paper dimensions. Like the margins, where I assume that other margins
are reasonable for a Legal page than for an A4 page. The same applies to
the dimensions of headers and footers. And even for the default tab stop
distance I believe that another values is reasonable for countries that
use the metric system than for those that use English units.

Best regards

Michael


-- 
Michael Brauer, Technical Architect Software Engineering
StarOffice/OpenOffice.org
Sun Microsystems GmbH             Nagelsweg 55
D-20097 Hamburg, Germany          michael.brauer@sun.com
http://sun.com/staroffice         +49 40 23646 500
http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
	   D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten
Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Thomas Schroeder, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering


  • 2.  Re: [office] Groups - Comparison of default styles (default-styles.ods) uploaded

    Posted 03-26-2008 18:06 
    I think that the most common units should be supported in the format.
I not sure that it should be necessary for folks generating documents
to have to make sure they are doing appropriate unit conversions.
However, I could be convinced either way.

wt

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 1:49 AM, Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02
- Hamburg


  • 3.  Re: [office] Groups - Comparison of default styles(default-styles.ods) uploaded

    Posted 03-27-2008 12:06 
    Hi Warren,

Warren Turkal wrote:
> I think that the most common units should be supported in the format.
> I not sure that it should be necessary for folks generating documents
> to have to make sure they are doing appropriate unit conversions.
> However, I could be convinced either way.

I was a little bit unclear. Actually ODF supports the most common units. 
So when writing a document, you can use inch, or cm, or even mm or pt, 
and I don't think we should change that.

The question is only which of these units we should take when 
documenting the default values of some formatting properties. Shall we 
say for instance that the default for fo:margin-top is "0in". Or shall 
we say "0cm"?

Michael


-- 
Michael Brauer, Technical Architect Software Engineering
StarOffice/OpenOffice.org
Sun Microsystems GmbH             Nagelsweg 55
D-20097 Hamburg, Germany          michael.brauer@sun.com
http://sun.com/staroffice         +49 40 23646 500
http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
	   D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten
Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Thomas Schroeder, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering


  • 4.  Re: [office] Groups - Comparison of default styles(default-styles.ods) uploaded

    Posted 03-27-2008 12:17 
    Hi Michael

If its a matter of just of documenting the actual distances can one not simply use both?

eg.  

fo:margin-top: "0in" or "0cm" is acceptable
fo:margin-top: "0.5in" or "1.27cm" is acceptable

I guess I'm grappling with whether the point here to agree on a standard set of default distances which could be expressed differently, or are we specifically looking for a default "value" (which then includes the dimension unit)?  I think the former would be easier.

Regards
Bob


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 5.  Re: [office] Groups - Comparison of default styles(default-styles.ods) uploaded

    Posted 03-27-2008 12:41 
    Hi Bob,

the current idea is to document the defaults by providing sample ODF 
files. So while it is in fact only the real distance or length that is 
of interest and not the unit that is used to specify it, we would have 
to write down a single attribute value.

Best regards

Michael

Bob Jolliffe wrote:
> Hi Michael
> 
> If its a matter of just of documenting the actual distances can one not simply use both?
> 
> eg.  
> 
> fo:margin-top: "0in" or "0cm" is acceptable
> fo:margin-top: "0.5in" or "1.27cm" is acceptable
> 
> I guess I'm grappling with whether the point here to agree on a standard set of default distances which could be expressed differently, or are we specifically looking for a default "value" (which then includes the dimension unit)?  I think the former would be easier.
> 
> Regards
> Bob
> 
> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 6.  Re: [office] Groups - Comparison of default styles (default-styles.ods) uploaded

    Posted 03-27-2008 13:04 

    Then I'd propose to use SI measurement
units, like "cm" or "mm" wherever possible,

    In fact, ISO Directives, Part 2, Annex
I "Quantities and Units" calls for the use of SI units.

    http://www.iec.ch/tiss/iec/Directives-Part2-Ed5.pdf

    -Rob



    

    

    
Michael Brauer - Sun Germany
- ham02 - Hamburg <Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM> 
    Sent by: Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM

    03/27/2008 08:40 AM

    		

    

    


    To
    
    		Bob Jolliffe <bobj@dst.gov.za>

    


    cc
    
    		office@lists.oasis-open.org, Warren
Turkal <turkal@google.com>

    


    Subject
    
    		Re: [office] Groups - Comparison of
default styles (default-styles.ods) uploaded

    

    

    






    Hi Bob,

    
the current idea is to document the defaults by providing sample ODF
    
files. So while it is in fact only the real distance or length that is
    
of interest and not the unit that is used to specify it, we would have
    
to write down a single attribute value.

    
Best regards

    
Michael

    
Bob Jolliffe wrote:
    
> Hi Michael
    
>
    
> If its a matter of just of documenting the actual distances can one
not simply use both?
    
>
    
> eg.  
    
>
    
> fo:margin-top: "0in" or "0cm" is acceptable
    
> fo:margin-top: "0.5in" or "1.27cm" is acceptable
    
>
    
> I guess I'm grappling with whether the point here to agree on a standard
set of default distances which could be expressed differently, or are we
specifically looking for a default "value" (which then includes
the dimension unit)?  I think the former would be easier.
    
>
    
> Regards
    
> Bob
    
>
    
> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
    
                                                    http://sun.com/staroffice
        +49 40 23646 500
    
    http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS

    
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
    
                
   D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten
    
Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
    
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Thomas Schroeder, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
    
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering

    
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  • 7.  Re: [office] Groups - Comparison of default styles (default-styles.ods) uploaded

    Posted 03-27-2008 10:16 
    Ming Fei Jia wrote:
    
> It seems most of values use "in" instead of "cm" as unit for length.

    
You are right. But at least in OpenOffice.org, the measurement unit that
    
is used in ODF depends on the measurement unit that is selected for the
    
UI. If measures are displayed in inch, then the unit that is used in ODF
    
is "in". If measures are displayed in "cm", then "cm" are used in ODF.
    
That means that it depends on the unit setting in the UI that was
    
active when saving the defaults whether they are stored in inch or cm.
    
We could also use only inch, or only cm, if we want.
    

    
So, the question is actually what the preferred measurement unit for an
    
international standard would be, or if there is such a preference at all.
    

    
<Understand. Since most values in this table use "in" as unit for length, "in" as defaults should bring minor changes for current vendor products if we have to select one of them. But maybe we can refer to other applications, MS Word uses "cm" as its length unit for most cases,Acrabat reader uses "in" as its page size measure. So I don't know which is better to be as standard unit.>
    

    
Related to this is the question whether and how we define defaults for
    
those properties that may have locale dependent values. I have suggested
    
already that we don't specify defaults for the page size, because there
    
are at least Legal and A4 paper dimensions. Assuming A4 as default won't
    
work very well for countries that usually use only Legal paper, and vice
    
versa. However, there seem to be several properties that depend on the
    
paper dimensions. Like the margins, where I assume that other margins
    
are reasonable for a Legal page than for an A4 page. The same applies to
    
the dimensions of headers and footers. And even for the default tab stop
    
distance I believe that another values is reasonable for countries that
    
use the metric system than for those that use English units.

    
<It either does not make sense for me to specify default values for those properties that depends on other properties.>

    
Best Regards,

    
Mingfei Jia(贾明飞)
    
IBM Lotus Symphony Development
    
IBM China Software Development LAB, Beijing
    
Tel: 86-10-82782244-2493   Fax: 86-10-62982924
    
NOTES:Ming Fei Jia/China/IBM   E-mail: jiamingf@cn.ibm.com
    
Address: 4/F, DeShi Building No.9, East Road, ShangDi, Haidian District, Beijing 100085, PRC


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