OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

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  • 1.  Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for"is-subtable" attribute

    Posted 07-10-2007 09:08 
    Hi Rich,

Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the 
document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell 
addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the 
_merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table 
cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses 
number-rows-spanned.

Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision, 
partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface 
function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid 
represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you 
want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells.

I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the 
representation of merged cells.

However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by 
inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the 
enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not 
generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state 
in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells.

Bests,
Lars

Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> Lars,
> 
> The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when you 
> drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the 
> underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings to 
> maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user gets 
> lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and our 
> ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer, 
> who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue.
> 
> Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory. 
> Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user is lost.
> 
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-accessibility/download.php/24546/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines_26_5July2007.odt
> 
> Hope this answers your question.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
> Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson"


  • 2.  Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute

    Posted 07-10-2007 22:44



  • 3.  Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] usecases for "is-subtable" attribute

    Posted 07-10-2007 23:32 

    Rich, I suspect that the current consensus
is sufficient, i.e. document that table:is-subtable should not be used
to implement split/merge.  The open switch is for the AccSC team to
agree that other use cases do not have problems.  One example given
was the layout for a Sudoku game which is a 3x3 grid where each cell in
turn contains a 3x3 grid.  Using subtables I think the addressing
scheme would look like this (using a 2x2 equivalent)

    .A1.A1 .A1.B1 .B1.A1 .B1.B1
    .A1.A2 .A1.B2 .B1.A2 .B1.B2
    .A2.A1 .A2.B1 .B2.A1 .B2.B1
    .A2.A2 .A2.B2 .B2.A2 .B2.B2

    My initial reaction is that cell addressing
scenario would not be confusing.

    I also asked for some other kind of
use case and Andreas suggested array-valued functions in a spread sheet.
 I am not familiar with this so I asked him to describe the table
structure.

    
    Pete Brunet
    
                    
                     
                     
         
    
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
    
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
    
Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 838-9666
    
Ionosphere: WS4G
    



    

    

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS


    07/10/2007 05:47 PM

    		

    

    


    To
    
    		Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>

    


    cc
    
    		Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>,
Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org, Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
Hironobu Takagi <TAKAGIH@jp.ibm.com>

    


    Subject
    
    		[office-accessibility] Re: [office]
Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

    

    

    






    Thank you Lars. We will have to try out some more samples
but this seems to address our problem.

    
Pete, Hiro, do you concur?

    
Rich


    
Rich Schwerdtfeger
    
Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    
Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    
blog:     http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    
    Lars
Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>

    
    

    

    
Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
    
Sent by: Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM     

    07/10/2007 04:08 AM


    

    

    



    To
    

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS    

    



    cc
    

    
Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org    

    



    Subject
    

    
Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

    

    

    





    
Hi Rich,

    
Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the
    
document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell
    
addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the
    
_merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table
    
cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses
    
number-rows-spanned.

    
Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision,
    
partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface
    
function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid
    
represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you
    
want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells.

    
I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the
    
representation of merged cells.

    
However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by
    
inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the
    
enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not
    
generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state
    
in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells.

    
Bests,
    
Lars

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
    
> Lars,
    
>
    
> The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when
you
    
> drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the
    
> underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings
to
    
> maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user
gets
    
> lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and
our
    
> ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer,
    
> who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue.
    
>
    
> Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory.
    
> Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user
is lost.
    
>
    
>     http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-accessibility/download.php/24546/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines_26_5July2007.odt
    
>
    
> Hope this answers your question.
    
>
    
> Cheers,
    
>
    
> Rich
    
>
    
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
    
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    
> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    
> blog:     http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    
> Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>"Dave
    
> Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>
    
>
    
>
    
>                    
    *"Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>*
    
>
    
>                    
    07/09/2007 12:23 PM
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
> To
    
>
    
> "Lars Oppermann" <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com>
    
>
    
> cc
    
>
    
> "OASIS Office" <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
    
> office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
    
>
    
> Subject
    
>
    
> [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
> On 09/07/07, Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com> wrote:
    
>  > Hi Dave,
    
>  >
    
>  > Could you elaborate a bit more on the reasons why a nested
table is a
    
>  > problem for access technology? From my (naive) point of
view, it would
    
>  > appear somewhat more confusing to navigate a lot of spanned
cells rather
    
>  > than entering a subtable.
    
>
    
> Suggestion.
    
>
    
> Find a friendly access technology user, perhaps a blind person?
    
> Ask them how table navigation works.
    
>
    
> If you sit alongside them, they can guide you through table navigation.
    
> Better still, put on a blindfold and try it for yourself.
    
> cell spanning has been around for a while.
    
> sub-tables seems to be an ODF invention?
    
>
    
>
    
> Either believe the accessibility sub-committee or find out from an
end user.
    
> I'm sure Peter or Rich can introduce you to an AT user if you ask
nicely.
    
>
    
> regards
    
>
    
>
    
> --
    
> Dave Pawson
    
> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
    
>     http://www.dpawson.co.uk
    
>


    
--
    
Sun Microsystems                Lars
Oppermann <lars.oppermann@sun.com>
    
Nagelsweg 55                  
 Software Engineer
    
20097 Hamburg, Germany          Phone: +49 40
23646 959
    
    http://www.sun.com/
            Fax:   +49 40 23646 550
    
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
    
D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten, Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
    
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
    
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering


  • 4.  Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] usecases for "is-subtable" attribute

    Posted 07-12-2007 01:30 

    Pete, 

    Is the Sudoku example an appropriate
use case to discuss the future direction of office documents? 
    I tried hard to find other examples
of "logically nested" tables, but I could not find any.... 

    I agree that the Sudoku is an example
of a semantically (essentially) nested table, even if it may not be an
appropriate example.
    We have some alternative methods to
deal with the example, e.g. table headers, use of nested tables (not is-subtable),
use of just table with instruction (since it has special semantics for
a game), and so on. 
    I feel the table header is the best
method to deal with the example, since we can add "controllable (editable,
modifiable)" semantics to each cell.

    Anyway, I want to investigate more examples,
if possible.

    Thank you.
    Hiro

    ---------------------
    
Hironobu Takagi, PhD.
    
User Experience and Accessibility Technology
    
Tokyo Research Laboratory, IBM Research
    
+81-46-215-4557
    
E-mail: takagih@jp.ibm.com

    



    

    

    


    

    

Pete
Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com>

    

    

To:
office@lists.oasis-open.org,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org

    




    

cc:


    




    

Subject:  
[office] Re: [office-accessibility]
Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

    




    

From:
Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com>
- Wednesday, July 11, 2007, 08:31






    
Rich, I suspect that the current consensus is sufficient, i.e. document
that table:is-subtable should not be used to implement split/merge.  The
open switch is for the AccSC team to agree that other use cases do not
have problems.  One example given was the layout for a Sudoku game
which is a 3x3 grid where each cell in turn contains a 3x3 grid.  Using
subtables I think the addressing scheme would look like this (using a 2x2
equivalent)
    

    
.A1.A1 .A1.B1 .B1.A1 .B1.B1     
    
.A1.A2 .A1.B2 .B1.A2 .B1.B2     
    
.A2.A1 .A2.B1 .B2.A1 .B2.B1     
    
.A2.A2 .A2.B2 .B2.A2 .B2.B2
    

    
My initial reaction is that cell addressing scenario would not be confusing.
    

    
I also asked for some other kind of use case and Andreas suggested array-valued
functions in a spread sheet.  I am not familiar with this so I asked
him to describe the table structure.     
    

    
Pete Brunet
    
                    
                     
                     
        
    
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
    
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
    
Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 838-9666
    
Ionosphere: WS4G


    
    

    

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS


    07/10/2007 05:47 PM



    

    

    


    To
    
    		Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>


    


    cc
    
    		Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>,
Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org, Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
Hironobu Takagi <TAKAGIH@jp.ibm.com> 

    


    Subject
    
    		[office-accessibility] Re: [office]
Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute


    

    

    







    
Thank you Lars. We will have to try out some more samples but this seems
to address our problem.

    
Pete, Hiro, do you concur?

    
Rich


    
Rich Schwerdtfeger
    
Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    
Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    
blog:     http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    
    Lars
Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
    
    

    

    
Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
    
Sent by: Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM     

    07/10/2007 04:08 AM 


    

    

    




    
To
    

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS     

    




    
cc
    

    
Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org     

    




    
Subject
    

    
Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute


    

    

    






    
Hi Rich,

    
Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the
    
document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell
    
addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the
    
_merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table
    
cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses
    
number-rows-spanned.

    
Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision,
    
partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface
    
function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid
    
represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you
    
want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells.

    
I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the
    
representation of merged cells.

    
However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by
    
inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the
    
enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not
    
generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state
    
in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells.

    
Bests,
    
Lars

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
    
> Lars,
    
>
    
> The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when
you
    
> drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the
    
> underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings
to
    
> maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user
gets
    
> lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and
our
    
> ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer,
    
> who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue.
    
>
    
> Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory.
    
> Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user
is lost.
    
>
    
>     http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-accessibility/download.php/24546/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines_26_5July2007.odt
    
>
    
> Hope this answers your question.
    
>
    
> Cheers,
    
>
    
> Rich
    
>
    
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
    
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    
> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    
> blog:     http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    
> Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>"Dave
    
> Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>
    
>
    
>
    
>                    
    *"Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>*
    
>
    
>                    
    07/09/2007 12:23 PM
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
> To
    
>
    
> "Lars Oppermann" <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com>
    
>
    
> cc
    
>
    
> "OASIS Office" <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
    
> office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
    
>
    
> Subject
    
>
    
> [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
> On 09/07/07, Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com> wrote:
    
>  > Hi Dave,
    
>  >
    
>  > Could you elaborate a bit more on the reasons why a nested
table is a
    
>  > problem for access technology? From my (naive) point of
view, it would
    
>  > appear somewhat more confusing to navigate a lot of spanned
cells rather
    
>  > than entering a subtable.
    
>
    
> Suggestion.
    
>
    
> Find a friendly access technology user, perhaps a blind person?
    
> Ask them how table navigation works.
    
>
    
> If you sit alongside them, they can guide you through table navigation.
    
> Better still, put on a blindfold and try it for yourself.
    
> cell spanning has been around for a while.
    
> sub-tables seems to be an ODF invention?
    
>
    
>
    
> Either believe the accessibility sub-committee or find out from an
end user.
    
> I'm sure Peter or Rich can introduce you to an AT user if you ask
nicely.
    
>
    
> regards
    
>
    
>
    
> --
    
> Dave Pawson
    
> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
    
>     http://www.dpawson.co.uk
    
>


    
--
    
Sun Microsystems                Lars
Oppermann <lars.oppermann@sun.com>
    
Nagelsweg 55                  
 Software Engineer
    
20097 Hamburg, Germany          Phone: +49 40
23646 959
    
    http://www.sun.com/
            Fax:   +49 40 23646 550
    
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
    
D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten, Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
    
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
    
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering


  • 5.  Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] usecases for "is-subtable" attribute

    Posted 07-12-2007 01:30 

    Pete, 

    Is the Sudoku example an appropriate
use case to discuss the future direction of office documents? 
    I tried hard to find other examples
of "logically nested" tables, but I could not find any.... 

    I agree that the Sudoku is an example
of a semantically (essentially) nested table, even if it may not be an
appropriate example.
    We have some alternative methods to
deal with the example, e.g. table headers, use of nested tables (not is-subtable),
use of just table with instruction (since it has special semantics for
a game), and so on. 
    I feel the table header is the best
method to deal with the example, since we can add "controllable (editable,
modifiable)" semantics to each cell.

    Anyway, I want to investigate more examples,
if possible.

    Thank you.
    Hiro

    ---------------------
    
Hironobu Takagi, PhD.
    
User Experience and Accessibility Technology
    
Tokyo Research Laboratory, IBM Research
    
+81-46-215-4557
    
E-mail: takagih@jp.ibm.com

    



    

    

    


    

    

Pete
Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com>

    

    

To:
office@lists.oasis-open.org,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org

    




    

cc:


    




    

Subject:  
[office] Re: [office-accessibility]
Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

    




    

From:
Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com>
- Wednesday, July 11, 2007, 08:31






    
Rich, I suspect that the current consensus is sufficient, i.e. document
that table:is-subtable should not be used to implement split/merge.  The
open switch is for the AccSC team to agree that other use cases do not
have problems.  One example given was the layout for a Sudoku game
which is a 3x3 grid where each cell in turn contains a 3x3 grid.  Using
subtables I think the addressing scheme would look like this (using a 2x2
equivalent)
    

    
.A1.A1 .A1.B1 .B1.A1 .B1.B1     
    
.A1.A2 .A1.B2 .B1.A2 .B1.B2     
    
.A2.A1 .A2.B1 .B2.A1 .B2.B1     
    
.A2.A2 .A2.B2 .B2.A2 .B2.B2
    

    
My initial reaction is that cell addressing scenario would not be confusing.
    

    
I also asked for some other kind of use case and Andreas suggested array-valued
functions in a spread sheet.  I am not familiar with this so I asked
him to describe the table structure.     
    

    
Pete Brunet
    
                    
                     
                     
        
    
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
    
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
    
Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 838-9666
    
Ionosphere: WS4G


    
    

    

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS


    07/10/2007 05:47 PM



    

    

    


    To
    
    		Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>


    


    cc
    
    		Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>,
Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org, Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
Hironobu Takagi <TAKAGIH@jp.ibm.com> 

    


    Subject
    
    		[office-accessibility] Re: [office]
Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute


    

    

    







    
Thank you Lars. We will have to try out some more samples but this seems
to address our problem.

    
Pete, Hiro, do you concur?

    
Rich


    
Rich Schwerdtfeger
    
Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    
Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    
blog:     http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    
    Lars
Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
    
    

    

    
Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
    
Sent by: Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM     

    07/10/2007 04:08 AM 


    

    

    




    
To
    

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS     

    




    
cc
    

    
Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org     

    




    
Subject
    

    
Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute


    

    

    






    
Hi Rich,

    
Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the
    
document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell
    
addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the
    
_merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table
    
cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses
    
number-rows-spanned.

    
Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision,
    
partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface
    
function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid
    
represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you
    
want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells.

    
I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the
    
representation of merged cells.

    
However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by
    
inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the
    
enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not
    
generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state
    
in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells.

    
Bests,
    
Lars

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
    
> Lars,
    
>
    
> The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when
you
    
> drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the
    
> underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings
to
    
> maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user
gets
    
> lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and
our
    
> ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer,
    
> who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue.
    
>
    
> Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory.
    
> Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user
is lost.
    
>
    
>     http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-accessibility/download.php/24546/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines_26_5July2007.odt
    
>
    
> Hope this answers your question.
    
>
    
> Cheers,
    
>
    
> Rich
    
>
    
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
    
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    
> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    
> blog:     http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    
> Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>"Dave
    
> Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>
    
>
    
>
    
>                    
    *"Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>*
    
>
    
>                    
    07/09/2007 12:23 PM
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
> To
    
>
    
> "Lars Oppermann" <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com>
    
>
    
> cc
    
>
    
> "OASIS Office" <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
    
> office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
    
>
    
> Subject
    
>
    
> [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
> On 09/07/07, Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com> wrote:
    
>  > Hi Dave,
    
>  >
    
>  > Could you elaborate a bit more on the reasons why a nested
table is a
    
>  > problem for access technology? From my (naive) point of
view, it would
    
>  > appear somewhat more confusing to navigate a lot of spanned
cells rather
    
>  > than entering a subtable.
    
>
    
> Suggestion.
    
>
    
> Find a friendly access technology user, perhaps a blind person?
    
> Ask them how table navigation works.
    
>
    
> If you sit alongside them, they can guide you through table navigation.
    
> Better still, put on a blindfold and try it for yourself.
    
> cell spanning has been around for a while.
    
> sub-tables seems to be an ODF invention?
    
>
    
>
    
> Either believe the accessibility sub-committee or find out from an
end user.
    
> I'm sure Peter or Rich can introduce you to an AT user if you ask
nicely.
    
>
    
> regards
    
>
    
>
    
> --
    
> Dave Pawson
    
> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
    
>     http://www.dpawson.co.uk
    
>


    
--
    
Sun Microsystems                Lars
Oppermann <lars.oppermann@sun.com>
    
Nagelsweg 55                  
 Software Engineer
    
20097 Hamburg, Germany          Phone: +49 40
23646 959
    
    http://www.sun.com/
            Fax:   +49 40 23646 550
    
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
    
D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten, Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
    
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
    
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering


  • 6.  Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] usecases for "is-subtable" attribute

    Posted 07-10-2007 23:32 

    Rich, I suspect that the current consensus
is sufficient, i.e. document that table:is-subtable should not be used
to implement split/merge.  The open switch is for the AccSC team to
agree that other use cases do not have problems.  One example given
was the layout for a Sudoku game which is a 3x3 grid where each cell in
turn contains a 3x3 grid.  Using subtables I think the addressing
scheme would look like this (using a 2x2 equivalent)

    .A1.A1 .A1.B1 .B1.A1 .B1.B1
    .A1.A2 .A1.B2 .B1.A2 .B1.B2
    .A2.A1 .A2.B1 .B2.A1 .B2.B1
    .A2.A2 .A2.B2 .B2.A2 .B2.B2

    My initial reaction is that cell addressing
scenario would not be confusing.

    I also asked for some other kind of
use case and Andreas suggested array-valued functions in a spread sheet.
 I am not familiar with this so I asked him to describe the table
structure.

    
    Pete Brunet
    
                    
                     
                     
         
    
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
    
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
    
Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 838-9666
    
Ionosphere: WS4G
    



    

    

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS


    07/10/2007 05:47 PM

    		

    

    


    To
    
    		Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>

    


    cc
    
    		Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>,
Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org, Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
Hironobu Takagi <TAKAGIH@jp.ibm.com>

    


    Subject
    
    		[office-accessibility] Re: [office]
Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

    

    

    






    Thank you Lars. We will have to try out some more samples
but this seems to address our problem.

    
Pete, Hiro, do you concur?

    
Rich


    
Rich Schwerdtfeger
    
Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    
Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    
blog:     http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    
    Lars
Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>

    
    

    

    
Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
    
Sent by: Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM     

    07/10/2007 04:08 AM


    

    

    



    To
    

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS    

    



    cc
    

    
Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>, OASIS Office <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org    

    



    Subject
    

    
Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

    

    

    





    
Hi Rich,

    
Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the
    
document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell
    
addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the
    
_merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table
    
cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses
    
number-rows-spanned.

    
Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision,
    
partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface
    
function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid
    
represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you
    
want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells.

    
I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the
    
representation of merged cells.

    
However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by
    
inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the
    
enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not
    
generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state
    
in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells.

    
Bests,
    
Lars

    
Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
    
> Lars,
    
>
    
> The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when
you
    
> drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the
    
> underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings
to
    
> maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user
gets
    
> lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and
our
    
> ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer,
    
> who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue.
    
>
    
> Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory.
    
> Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user
is lost.
    
>
    
>     http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-accessibility/download.php/24546/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines_26_5July2007.odt
    
>
    
> Hope this answers your question.
    
>
    
> Cheers,
    
>
    
> Rich
    
>
    
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
    
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    
> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    
> blog:     http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    
> Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>"Dave
    
> Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>
    
>
    
>
    
>                    
    *"Dave Pawson" <dave.pawson@gmail.com>*
    
>
    
>                    
    07/09/2007 12:23 PM
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
> To
    
>
    
> "Lars Oppermann" <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com>
    
>
    
> cc
    
>
    
> "OASIS Office" <office@lists.oasis-open.org>,
    
> office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
    
>
    
> Subject
    
>
    
> [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
>
    
> On 09/07/07, Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@sun.com> wrote:
    
>  > Hi Dave,
    
>  >
    
>  > Could you elaborate a bit more on the reasons why a nested
table is a
    
>  > problem for access technology? From my (naive) point of
view, it would
    
>  > appear somewhat more confusing to navigate a lot of spanned
cells rather
    
>  > than entering a subtable.
    
>
    
> Suggestion.
    
>
    
> Find a friendly access technology user, perhaps a blind person?
    
> Ask them how table navigation works.
    
>
    
> If you sit alongside them, they can guide you through table navigation.
    
> Better still, put on a blindfold and try it for yourself.
    
> cell spanning has been around for a while.
    
> sub-tables seems to be an ODF invention?
    
>
    
>
    
> Either believe the accessibility sub-committee or find out from an
end user.
    
> I'm sure Peter or Rich can introduce you to an AT user if you ask
nicely.
    
>
    
> regards
    
>
    
>
    
> --
    
> Dave Pawson
    
> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
    
>     http://www.dpawson.co.uk
    
>


    
--
    
Sun Microsystems                Lars
Oppermann <lars.oppermann@sun.com>
    
Nagelsweg 55                  
 Software Engineer
    
20097 Hamburg, Germany          Phone: +49 40
23646 959
    
    http://www.sun.com/
            Fax:   +49 40 23646 550
    
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
    
D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten, Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
    
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
    
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering


  • 7.  Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute

    Posted 07-10-2007 22:44
      |   view attached



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