OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

 View Only
  • 1.  SC34 WG6 meeting

    Posted 12-15-2009 18:35

    I've read with some concern Rob's latest blog post, here: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/12/relevancy-of-odf-10.html.  Although not an official ODF TC document, it comes from the co-chair of the TC and it's addressing a matter of ODF maintenance, so I expect that many people will see it as an authoritative source of information about recent developments in ODF maintenance.

    I’m concerned about this statement in particular, which is essentially the centerpiece of the post:

    > Some of the nattering nabobs in SC34 (e.g., Alex Brown) are floating the idea that ODF 1.0 should be withdrawn from ISO,

    > claiming it is not implemented and not relevant.  At the recent SC34 meeting in Paris this view was echoed by a Microsoft

    > participant (one of many) in the meeting, who additionally urged that a motion to withdraw ODF 1.0 be brought forward

    > at the Stockholm SC34 Plenary in March.

    I was there at the WG6 meeting, and I don't recall this happening, nor can I find any reference to this in the minutes of the meeting.

    I do recall a discussion of Resolution #3 from the Bellevue SC34 plenary in September regarding amendment of ODF 1.0 to align it with ODF 1.1.  Although this resolution is never mentioned in Rob’s post, I’m guessing that this may be the discussion he’s alluding to.

    During that discussion, several participants (all non-Microsoft delegates from various NBs) expressing their concern about the apparent lack of progress on OASIS’s response to that resolution.  Some felt that if such an amendment is never delivered then ISO/IEC 26300 would not reflect actual practice among ODF users, in particular as regards accessibility issues.  The theoretical concept of withdrawal of ODF 1.0 only came up in a side discussion about what might happen if the ODF TC never responds to Resolution #3 and ODF 1.2 gets a new IS number, leaving ISO/IEC 26300 as a historical relic that is not aligned with existing practice or existing implementations.

    I agree with the way Alex Brown characterized that discussion on his blog recently (http://www.adjb.net/post/SC-34-WG-meetings-in-Paris-last-week.aspx):

    > Most significant of all is the work to align the ISO version of ODF with the current OASIS standard so that ISO/IEC 26300 and

    > ODF 1.1 are technically equivalent. The National Bodies present reiterated a consensus that this was desirable (better, by far,

    > than withdrawing ISO/IEC 26300 as a defunct standard) and are looking forward to the amendment project.

    I don't recall any Microsoft employee saying anything at all about this matter in the WG6 meeting.  I listened to the opinions of others, but didn't express any opinion of my own during this discussion, and I believe the same was true of the other Microsoft employees present. Svante, since you were the other ODF TC member present, I'm curious whether you have any different recollection.  And Rob, would you be willing to share the source of your information?  Or name/quote the “Microsoft participant” you have referred to?

    As it stands, it seems that WG6’s discussion of the status of an SC34 plenary resolution has been represented by a leader of the OASIS ODF TC as “Microsoft” urging that a motion to withdraw ODF 1.0 be brought forward at the Stockholm SC34 Plenary in March.  This may be creating a perception that a particular OASIS ODF TC member is working against the TC's broad commitment to effective maintenance of ODF, and I think that’s a misleading and inaccurate characterization of what happened in the WG6 meeting.

    - Doug

    Doug Mahugh    |    Lead Standards Professional   |   Office Interoperability    |   425-707-1182   |   blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh



  • 2.  Re: SC34 WG6 meeting

    Posted 12-15-2009 20:00
    Doug Mahugh 


  • 3.  RE: [office] Re: SC34 WG6 meeting

    Posted 12-15-2009 22:14
    Rob,
    
    You seem to be responding to a question I didn't ask, something along the lines of "what has the ODF TC done in response to Resolution #3?"  I was more interested in knowing why you've written a blog post about something that didn't happen (Microsoft urging SC34 to withdraw ODF 1.0).
    
    Personally, I think that it reflects poorly on the ODF TC as a whole for one of our members to be actively promoting an apparently fictionalized version of a meeting where ODF maintenance issues were discussed, but I'll not press the matter any further.
    
    Regards,
    Doug
    
    


  • 4.  RE: [office] Re: SC34 WG6 meeting

    Posted 12-15-2009 22:51
    Doug, you are the one who raised in your note the question of Resolution 
    #3 and the TC's response to it.  So far as I could determine, that was the 
    only portion of your note that was relevant to the TC's work.  So I 
    responded to that.   In any case, it was a good point to bring up, since 
    evidently there was some confusion on that point.
    
    Regards,
    
    -Rob
    
    Doug Mahugh 


  • 5.  Re: [office] SC34 WG6 meeting

    Posted 12-16-2009 14:39
    Doug,
    
    I don't normally comment on the by-play between vendors and it isn't my 
    plan to make it a practice now.
    
    I did not attend the SC 34 WG6 meetings so will leave comments on what 
    was or wasn't said to those who did attend.
    
    I am familiar with the participation of Microsoft in the ODF TC and can 
    say from experience (and the record should anyone care to look at it) 
    that Microsoft has been a valuable and contributing member of the ODF TC.
    
    I note that in Windows 7 that WordPad supports ODF as one of its 
    formats. I don't know how else to characterize the inclusion of a format 
    in a product as widely available and used as WordPad as other than as 
    supportive of ODF.
    
    I welcome the use of ODF by all parties, open source projects, 
    governments, commercial vendors (yes, there are a few of those still 
    around) and anyone else who needs a robust document format. ODF 1.2, 
    which the TC is working on finishing when it isn't distracted by other 
    issues, promises to be a major step in the development of office 
    formats. (OK, that last statement reflects a personal prejudice. ;-) )
    
    Hope everyone is having a great week!
    
    Patrick
    
    Doug Mahugh wrote:
    >
    > I've read with some concern Rob's latest blog post, here: 
    > http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/12/relevancy-of-odf-10.html. Although 
    > not an official ODF TC document, it comes from the co-chair of the TC 
    > and it's addressing a matter of ODF maintenance, so I expect that many 
    > people will see it as an authoritative source of information about 
    > recent developments in ODF maintenance.
    >
    > I’m concerned about this statement in particular, which is essentially 
    > the centerpiece of the post:
    >
    > > Some of the nattering nabobs in SC34 (e.g., Alex Brown) are floating 
    > the idea that ODF 1.0 should be withdrawn from ISO,
    >
    > > claiming it is not implemented and not relevant. At the recent SC34 
    > meeting in Paris this view was echoed by a Microsoft
    >
    > > participant (one of many) in the meeting, who additionally urged 
    > that a motion to withdraw ODF 1.0 be brought forward
    >
    > > at the Stockholm SC34 Plenary in March.
    >
    > I was there at the WG6 meeting, and I don't recall this happening, nor 
    > can I find any reference to this in the minutes of the meeting.
    >
    > I do recall a discussion of Resolution #3 from the Bellevue SC34 
    > plenary in September regarding amendment of ODF 1.0 to align it with 
    > ODF 1.1. Although this resolution is never mentioned in Rob’s post, 
    > I’m guessing that this may be the discussion he’s alluding to.
    >
    > During that discussion, several participants (all non-Microsoft 
    > delegates from various NBs) expressing their concern about the 
    > apparent lack of progress on OASIS’s response to that resolution. Some 
    > felt that if such an amendment is never delivered then ISO/IEC 26300 
    > would not reflect actual practice among ODF users, in particular as 
    > regards accessibility issues. The theoretical concept of withdrawal of 
    > ODF 1.0 only came up in a side discussion about what might happen if 
    > the ODF TC never responds to Resolution #3 and ODF 1.2 gets a new IS 
    > number, leaving ISO/IEC 26300 as a historical relic that is not 
    > aligned with existing practice or existing implementations.
    >
    > I agree with the way Alex Brown characterized that discussion on his 
    > blog recently 
    > (http://www.adjb.net/post/SC-34-WG-meetings-in-Paris-last-week.aspx):
    >
    > > Most significant of all is the work to align the ISO version of ODF 
    > with the current OASIS standard so that ISO/IEC 26300 and
    >
    > > ODF 1.1 are technically equivalent. The National Bodies present 
    > reiterated a consensus that this was desirable (better, by far,
    >
    > > than withdrawing ISO/IEC 26300 as a defunct standard) and are 
    > looking forward to the amendment project.
    >
    > I don't recall any Microsoft employee saying anything at all about 
    > this matter in the WG6 meeting. I listened to the opinions of others, 
    > but didn't express any opinion of my own during this discussion, and I 
    > believe the same was true of the other Microsoft employees present. 
    > Svante, since you were the other ODF TC member present, I'm curious 
    > whether you have any different recollection. And Rob, would you be 
    > willing to share the source of your information? Or name/quote the 
    > “Microsoft participant” you have referred to?
    >
    > As it stands, it seems that WG6’s discussion of the status of an SC34 
    > plenary resolution has been represented by a leader of the OASIS ODF 
    > TC as “Microsoft” urging that a motion to withdraw ODF 1.0 be brought 
    > forward at the Stockholm SC34 Plenary in March. This may be creating a 
    > perception that a particular OASIS ODF TC member is working against 
    > the TC's broad commitment to effective maintenance of ODF, and I think 
    > that’s a misleading and inaccurate characterization of what happened 
    > in the WG6 meeting.
    >
    > - Doug
    >
    > Doug Mahugh | Lead Standards Professional | Office Interoperability | 
    > 425-707-1182 | blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh