OASIS Energy Interoperation TC

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  • 1.  FW: [emix] Not To Exceed

    Posted 03-11-2010 17:16
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Sorry Toby, I forgot to click reply-all.

    Robert Old

    Siemens Industry, Inc.

    Building Technologies

    1000 Deerfield Pkwy.

    Buffalo Grove, IL 60089-4513

    Tel.: +1 (847) 941-5623

    Skype: bobold2

    bob.old@siemens.com

    www.siemens.com

    From: Old, Bob
    Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:13 AM
    To: 'Toby.Considine@gmail.com'
    Subject: RE: [emix] Not To Exceed

    My expectation for verification is that the utility meter information is required.  I’ve also heard that in a curtailment scenario, just promising to reduce load by a certain amount around uncertain beginning and end points is a non-starter. 

    The programs I’ve heard of give you a baseline for the next day, below which you have to reduce by some program-determined amount and for which you get a program-determined level of compensation.  Sometimes the program specifies that the baseline will be calculated on something like “the highest/lowest usage over 5 of the last 6 day which don’t include weekends/holidays/days with an event called.”  But sometimes they just give you the number and you do your own modeling.

    We’re talking money here.  It needs a revenue grade meter.

    Best,

    B.O.  March 11, 2010

    Robert Old

    Siemens Industry, Inc.

    Building Technologies

    1000 Deerfield Pkwy.

    Buffalo Grove, IL 60089-4513

    Tel.: +1 (847) 941-5623

    Skype: bobold2

    bob.old@siemens.com

    www.siemens.com

    From: Toby Considine [mailto:tobyconsidine@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Toby Considine
    Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:43 AM
    To: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: [emix] Not To Exceed

    DR – and Verification, and Verification is the conundrum. Verification is the problem because DR are is a promise to reduce load by a certain amount from an uncertain beginning end point to an unknown end point.

    What about an agreement that “I will use no more than xxx” as a DR offering. It becomes entirely results oriented (good for a service). It would be more valuable if it warranted “no spikes” rather than merely total use for a [15 minute] period. It certainly would be callable.

    Do we adopt this? If so,  does it look like

    [emix – this is for max use]

    Or does it look like

    [Eitc: I will commit not to exceed

        [emix]

    ]

    In other words, is max an EITC or EMIX thing…

    tc


    "Energy and persistence conquer all things." -- Benjamin Franklin


    Toby Considine
    TC9, Inc

    OASIS Technical Advisory Board
    TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar

    TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop

      

    Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com

    Phone: (919)619-2104

    http://www.tcnine.com/

    blog: www.NewDaedalus.com



  • 2.  RE: [emix] Not To Exceed

    Posted 03-11-2010 17:48
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Drat! Of all the sessions to miss, this topic (M&V) is where I have spent years of "quality" time.  Darn those pesky customers, anyway.  A few key point in the field application of DR:
     
    1.  The ISO's have market rules that can result in calls for increased loads (regulation support) under certain circumstances, so the result of DR (response, not reduction) can be +/-.  The + is rare but growing, and promises to be the crux of DR 3.0.
     
    2.  In traditional DR programs, there are three constructs, and not all have baselines.  Most commonly,  baselines are calculated from the the past N days' demand excluding certain types of days, but regardless, that formula is decreed by market rule.  When an event is called, current status is not terribly relevant as the goal is to perform in relationship to the established baseline.  In some cases, the customer may already be there due to circumstance, or it may be impossible to get there, again due to circumstance.  Macht nichts as far as the ISO is concerned.
     
    An outgrowth of that conundrum is that some market rules call for a reduction against that baseline, some call for a reduction to a specific level (no baseline), and others call for a reduction by a specific amount from current state ("instant" baseline).  There is a variant that involves guarantee not to exceed a certain value, but to me, this is the obverse of dropping to a specific level.
     
    3.  Verification does involve the revenue meter but in today's world, this is not a direct link.  While there may be leads attached to revenue meters, most often, the demand data submitted for settlement comes from submeters, CT's, or control system consoles.  Over time (and it can be a long time), this settlement data is validated against the utility meter and payment is made if the two agree within a preset tolerance level.  There is never an exact match since DR events and utility read intervals almost never sync.
     
    There are countless variations.  On site generation can use name plate data rather then metered data, for example, and I've even seen settlements based on the amount of diesel consumed during events.  Never underestimate an engineer's ability to introduce complexity.
     
    As my kids would say TL;DR (google it, old folks).
     
    At your service.
    Phil

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Phil Davis | Senior Manager Schneider Electric Demand Response Resource Center | 3103 Medlock Bridge Road, Ste 100 | Norcross, GA  30071 | (404.567.6090 | 7678.672.2433 | *phil.davis@us.schneider-electric.com | : Website:  http://www.schneider-electric.com

     



    From: Old, Bob [mailto:bob.old@siemens.com]
    Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:15 PM
    To: Energy Interop; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: FW: [emix] Not To Exceed

    Sorry Toby, I forgot to click reply-all.

    Robert Old

    Siemens Industry, Inc.

    Building Technologies

    1000 Deerfield Pkwy.

    Buffalo Grove, IL 60089-4513

    Tel.: +1 (847) 941-5623

    Skype: bobold2

    bob.old@siemens.com

    www.siemens.com

    From: Old, Bob
    Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:13 AM
    To: 'Toby.Considine@gmail.com'
    Subject: RE: [emix] Not To Exceed

    My expectation for verification is that the utility meter information is required.  I’ve also heard that in a curtailment scenario, just promising to reduce load by a certain amount around uncertain beginning and end points is a non-starter. 

    The programs I’ve heard of give you a baseline for the next day, below which you have to reduce by some program-determined amount and for which you get a program-determined level of compensation.  Sometimes the program specifies that the baseline will be calculated on something like “the highest/lowest usage over 5 of the last 6 day which don’t include weekends/holidays/days with an event called.”  But sometimes they just give you the number and you do your own modeling.

    We’re talking money here.  It needs a revenue grade meter.

    Best,

    B.O.  March 11, 2010

    Robert Old

    Siemens Industry, Inc.

    Building Technologies

    1000 Deerfield Pkwy.

    Buffalo Grove, IL 60089-4513

    Tel.: +1 (847) 941-5623

    Skype: bobold2

    bob.old@siemens.com

    www.siemens.com

    From: Toby Considine [mailto:tobyconsidine@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Toby Considine
    Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:43 AM
    To: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: [emix] Not To Exceed

    DR – and Verification, and Verification is the conundrum. Verification is the problem because DR are is a promise to reduce load by a certain amount from an uncertain beginning end point to an unknown end point.

    What about an agreement that “I will use no more than xxx” as a DR offering. It becomes entirely results oriented (good for a service). It would be more valuable if it warranted “no spikes” rather than merely total use for a [15 minute] period. It certainly would be callable.

    Do we adopt this? If so,  does it look like

    [emix – this is for max use]

    Or does it look like

    [Eitc: I will commit not to exceed

        [emix]

    ]

    In other words, is max an EITC or EMIX thing…

    tc


    "Energy and persistence conquer all things." -- Benjamin Franklin


    Toby Considine
    TC9, Inc

    OASIS Technical Advisory Board
    TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar

    TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop

      

    Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com

    Phone: (919)619-2104

    http://www.tcnine.com/

    blog: www.NewDaedalus.com


    ________________________________________________________________________
    This email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageL
    abs Email Security System.
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  • 3.  Re: [energyinterop] RE: [emix] Not To Exceed

    Posted 03-11-2010 18:18
      |   view attached

    Attachment(s)

    vcf
    skiliccote.vcf   343 B 1 version


  • 4.  RE: [emix] Not To Exceed

    Posted 03-11-2010 17:48
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Drat! Of all the sessions to miss, this topic (M&V) is where I have spent years of "quality" time.  Darn those pesky customers, anyway.  A few key point in the field application of DR:
     
    1.  The ISO's have market rules that can result in calls for increased loads (regulation support) under certain circumstances, so the result of DR (response, not reduction) can be +/-.  The + is rare but growing, and promises to be the crux of DR 3.0.
     
    2.  In traditional DR programs, there are three constructs, and not all have baselines.  Most commonly,  baselines are calculated from the the past N days' demand excluding certain types of days, but regardless, that formula is decreed by market rule.  When an event is called, current status is not terribly relevant as the goal is to perform in relationship to the established baseline.  In some cases, the customer may already be there due to circumstance, or it may be impossible to get there, again due to circumstance.  Macht nichts as far as the ISO is concerned.
     
    An outgrowth of that conundrum is that some market rules call for a reduction against that baseline, some call for a reduction to a specific level (no baseline), and others call for a reduction by a specific amount from current state ("instant" baseline).  There is a variant that involves guarantee not to exceed a certain value, but to me, this is the obverse of dropping to a specific level.
     
    3.  Verification does involve the revenue meter but in today's world, this is not a direct link.  While there may be leads attached to revenue meters, most often, the demand data submitted for settlement comes from submeters, CT's, or control system consoles.  Over time (and it can be a long time), this settlement data is validated against the utility meter and payment is made if the two agree within a preset tolerance level.  There is never an exact match since DR events and utility read intervals almost never sync.
     
    There are countless variations.  On site generation can use name plate data rather then metered data, for example, and I've even seen settlements based on the amount of diesel consumed during events.  Never underestimate an engineer's ability to introduce complexity.
     
    As my kids would say TL;DR (google it, old folks).
     
    At your service.
    Phil

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Phil Davis | Senior Manager Schneider Electric Demand Response Resource Center | 3103 Medlock Bridge Road, Ste 100 | Norcross, GA  30071 | (404.567.6090 | 7678.672.2433 | *phil.davis@us.schneider-electric.com | : Website:  http://www.schneider-electric.com

     



    From: Old, Bob [mailto:bob.old@siemens.com]
    Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:15 PM
    To: Energy Interop; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: FW: [emix] Not To Exceed

    Sorry Toby, I forgot to click reply-all.

    Robert Old

    Siemens Industry, Inc.

    Building Technologies

    1000 Deerfield Pkwy.

    Buffalo Grove, IL 60089-4513

    Tel.: +1 (847) 941-5623

    Skype: bobold2

    bob.old@siemens.com

    www.siemens.com

    From: Old, Bob
    Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:13 AM
    To: 'Toby.Considine@gmail.com'
    Subject: RE: [emix] Not To Exceed

    My expectation for verification is that the utility meter information is required.  I’ve also heard that in a curtailment scenario, just promising to reduce load by a certain amount around uncertain beginning and end points is a non-starter. 

    The programs I’ve heard of give you a baseline for the next day, below which you have to reduce by some program-determined amount and for which you get a program-determined level of compensation.  Sometimes the program specifies that the baseline will be calculated on something like “the highest/lowest usage over 5 of the last 6 day which don’t include weekends/holidays/days with an event called.”  But sometimes they just give you the number and you do your own modeling.

    We’re talking money here.  It needs a revenue grade meter.

    Best,

    B.O.  March 11, 2010

    Robert Old

    Siemens Industry, Inc.

    Building Technologies

    1000 Deerfield Pkwy.

    Buffalo Grove, IL 60089-4513

    Tel.: +1 (847) 941-5623

    Skype: bobold2

    bob.old@siemens.com

    www.siemens.com

    From: Toby Considine [mailto:tobyconsidine@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Toby Considine
    Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:43 AM
    To: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org; emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: [emix] Not To Exceed

    DR – and Verification, and Verification is the conundrum. Verification is the problem because DR are is a promise to reduce load by a certain amount from an uncertain beginning end point to an unknown end point.

    What about an agreement that “I will use no more than xxx” as a DR offering. It becomes entirely results oriented (good for a service). It would be more valuable if it warranted “no spikes” rather than merely total use for a [15 minute] period. It certainly would be callable.

    Do we adopt this? If so,  does it look like

    [emix – this is for max use]

    Or does it look like

    [Eitc: I will commit not to exceed

        [emix]

    ]

    In other words, is max an EITC or EMIX thing…

    tc


    "Energy and persistence conquer all things." -- Benjamin Franklin


    Toby Considine
    TC9, Inc

    OASIS Technical Advisory Board
    TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar

    TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop

      

    Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com

    Phone: (919)619-2104

    http://www.tcnine.com/

    blog: www.NewDaedalus.com


    ________________________________________________________________________
    This email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageL
    abs Email Security System.
    ________________________________________________________________________