OASIS Energy Market Information Exchange (eMIX) TC

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  • 1.  Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-03-2010 00:06 
    



This came up during last
week's eMIX TC meeting -- What is the definition of price interval?
What elements/attributes are comprised in it?

    
For any price, there should be a standard "Time" factor associated with
it (unless the exception is there is "one" price for all periods).

    

    
I think we should make a key distinction of price schedule versus the
interval (if we ever can) and how the generic price intervals are
different from their definition in DR signals (the notion of DR
events).

    
Let's say for example, a price-responsive DR event in OpenADR may look
something like this (I am not saying this is how eMIX should address it
as the goal of sending the information and subsequent response may
differ) --

    
           
<p:drEventData>
    
          
<p:notificationTime>2010-02-08T15:17:21.000-08:00</p:notificationTime>
    
           
<p:startTime>2010-02-09T00:00:00.000-08:00</p:startTime>
    
           
<p:endTime>2010-02-09T23:59:59.000-08:00</p:endTime>
    
            <p:eventInfoInstances>
    
               
<p:eventInfoTypeID>PRICE_ABSOLUTE</p:eventInfoTypeID>
    
                <p:eventInfoName>price</p:eventInfoName>
    
                <p:eventInfoValues>
    
                    <p:value>0.03638841</p:value>
    
                    <p:timeOffset>0</p:timeOffset>
    
                </p:eventInfoValues>
    
        </p:eventInfoInstances>
    
        </p:drEventData>

    
What you see above is a definition of time slot (start and end time)
that has various attributes associated with it. Other attributes could
be for example, load shed, % shed, etc. However, all of these
attributes are associated with one time-slot notion, which is defined
by the period of DR event.

    
Thank you,
    
RIsh

    
    

    --
    

    
  
    
    
      
Rish Ghatikar
    
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
    
1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720
    
GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 | +1 510.486.4089 [fax]     		
    
    
    
    
      
    
This email is intended for the addressee only and may contain
confidential information and should not be copied without permission.
If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as
soon as possible and delete the email from computer[s].


  • 2.  RE: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-03-2010 00:15 
    














    


    Girsh, 
    


    


    The definition of an
Interval I have been assuming is given by a start time and an end time which is
the same as you assume below.
    


    


    Ed
    


    


    


    Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.
    


    101 First Street, Suite 552
    


    Los Altos, CA 94022
    


    650-949-5274
    


    cell: 408-621-2772
    


    ed@cazalet.com
    


    www.cazalet.com
    


    


    


    


    


    From: Girish Ghatikar [mailto:GGhatikar@lbl.gov]
    
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 5:06 PM
    
To: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    
Subject: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"
    


    


    


    


    This came up during last week's eMIX
TC meeting -- What is the definition of price interval? What
elements/attributes are comprised in it?

    
For any price, there should be a standard "Time" factor associated
with it (unless the exception is there is "one" price for all
periods).


    
I think we should make a key distinction of price schedule versus the interval
(if we ever can) and how the generic price intervals are different from their
definition in DR signals (the notion of DR events).

    
Let's say for example, a price-responsive DR event in OpenADR may look
something like this (I am not saying this is how eMIX should address it as the
goal of sending the information and subsequent response may differ) --

    
        <p:drEventData>
    
          
<p:notificationTime>2010-02-08T15:17:21.000-08:00</p:notificationTime>
    
           
<p:startTime>2010-02-09T00:00:00.000-08:00</p:startTime>
    
           
<p:endTime>2010-02-09T23:59:59.000-08:00</p:endTime>
    
           
<p:eventInfoInstances>
    
               
<p:eventInfoTypeID>PRICE_ABSOLUTE</p:eventInfoTypeID>
    
               
<p:eventInfoName>price</p:eventInfoName>
    
               
<p:eventInfoValues>
    
                   
<p:value>0.03638841</p:value>
    
                   
<p:timeOffset>0</p:timeOffset>
    
               
</p:eventInfoValues>
    
        </p:eventInfoInstances>
    
        </p:drEventData>

    
What you see above is a definition of time slot (start and end time) that has
various attributes associated with it. Other attributes could be for example,
load shed, % shed, etc. However, all of these attributes are associated with
one time-slot notion, which is defined by the period of DR event.

    
Thank you,
    
RIsh
    


    


    -- 
    


    
 
    
  
  
    Rish
  Ghatikar
    
  Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
    
  1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720
    
  GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 |
  +1 510.486.4089 [fax] 
    
      		
 
    
 
    
  
  

    
  This email is intended for the addressee only and may contain confidential
  information and should not be copied without permission. If you are not the
  intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible and delete
  the email from computer[s]. 
    
      		
 
    

    


    


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  • 3.  RE: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-03-2010 00:49 
    




    Keep 
in mind that when the ISO's refer to price interval in their reports and 
analysis documents, they are referring to a monetary interval rather than a time 
based interval.  In other words, there is a $15 price interval between an 
LMP of $45/mwh and $60/mwh.  Most usage in analysis is asks questions like 
"at what price interval do large facilities respond to DR signals".  These 
kinds of studies influence incentives and subsidies, and may inform rate making 
in regulated constructs.  However, in the markets, the actual prices 
themselves are known well in advance of Dr events since they are set at 
auctions.
    

     
    

    When 
modeling/forecasting for grid operations, the ISO's will use this research to 
determine the likelihood of calling an event and the cost of that event, given 
weather predictions at various degrees of confidence (of the weather).  
Because of the usage, I would reverse the wording somewhat; i.e., that for a 
given time interval, there should be a price associated with it.  
Recipients would use this data, especially in automated systems either to auto 
respond or to signal managers if prices exceeded a pre-set 
level.
    

     
    

    This 
happens to be a period of rapid rules change following a relative period of 
stability.  Predictions are troublesome at best, but there seems to be a 
national trend toward eliminating specific pricing for DR, and paying all 
parties the generation equivalent of the energy product produced.  this is 
not without controversy, so our wisest course might be to allow for showing 
prices for DR and for the underlying energy.  This would support a value 
calculation that encompasses both the overt value of DR plus the value of the 
avoided purchase of energy for the same time interval.
    

     
    

    Phil 
Davis

    

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Phil 
Davis | Senior Manager | Schneider Electric Demand Response 
Resource Center | 3103 Medlock 
Bridge Road, Ste 100 | Norcross, 
GA  30071 | (: 404.567.6090 | 7: 678.672.2433 | Skype: 
pddcoo *: phil.davis@us.schneider-electric.com | : Website:  http://www.schneider-electric.com
    

     
    

     
    

     

    

    

    
From: Girish Ghatikar [mailto:GGhatikar@lbl.gov]
    Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:06 PM
    To: 
emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: [emix] Definition of a "Price 
Interval"

    

    This came up during last 
week's eMIX TC meeting -- What is the definition of price interval? What 
elements/attributes are comprised in it?

    For any price, there should 
be a standard "Time" factor associated with it (unless the exception is there is 
"one" price for all periods).


    I think we should make a key distinction 
of price schedule versus the interval (if we ever can) and how the generic price 
intervals are different from their definition in DR signals (the notion of DR 
events).

    Let's say for example, a price-responsive DR event in OpenADR 
may look something like this (I am not saying this is how eMIX should address it 
as the goal of sending the information and subsequent response may differ) --

            
<p:drEventData>
               
<p:notificationTime>2010-02-08T15:17:21.000-08:00</p:notificationTime>
                
<p:startTime>2010-02-09T00:00:00.000-08:00</p:startTime>
                
<p:endTime>2010-02-09T23:59:59.000-08:00</p:endTime>
                
<p:eventInfoInstances>
                    
<p:eventInfoTypeID>PRICE_ABSOLUTE</p:eventInfoTypeID>
                    
<p:eventInfoName>price</p:eventInfoName>
                    
<p:eventInfoValues>
                        
<p:value>0.03638841</p:value>
                        
<p:timeOffset>0</p:timeOffset>
                    
</p:eventInfoValues>
            
</p:eventInfoInstances>
            
</p:drEventData>

    What you see above is a definition of time slot 
(start and end time) that has various attributes associated with it. Other 
attributes could be for example, load shed, % shed, etc. However, all of these 
attributes are associated with one time-slot notion, which is defined by the 
period of DR event.

    Thank you,
    RIsh

    

    --
    

    
  
  
    
    Rish Ghatikar
    Lawrence Berkeley 
      National Laboratory
    1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 
      94720
    GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 | 
      +1 510.486.4089 [fax] 
    
  
    
    
    This email is intended for the addressee only and may contain 
      confidential information and should not be copied without permission. If 
      you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as 
      possible and delete the email from computer[s]. 


    ________________________________________________________________________
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  • 4.  Re: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-04-2010 00:27 
    

  


Phil,

    
Thanks for bringing this up and I think this is the issue with
terminologies and NOT the concept of use of time for intervals.

    
Based on my interactions during technology integration of CAISO      real-time market (RTM) with OpenADR, we have seen that
intervals could be used in different contexts. What you have is a
definition of "price intervals" is one element. For example, for CAISO,
under "prices" on -- http://oasis.caiso.com/mrtu-oasis/ -- the
intervals are used for time, price, etc. as seen below by definitions.

    
"Interval Locational Marginal Prices: Five-minute Locational
Marginal Prices for all PNodes and all APNodes in $/MWh, for each five-minute
interval RTM. Posts the LMP, plus the Congestion, Loss and Energy
Components that makes up the LMP."
    
"Interval AS Clearing Prices: Ancillary Services Regional Shadow
Price for all Ancillary Service types for all binding AS Regions and
Sub-Regional Partitions. Posts 15-Minute price relevant to the next 15
minute binding interval for RTM on a fifteen minute basis."

    
While I think the "monetary interval" you have is one important
element for DR, other element is also the "time interval." For
example, the time interval will determine the end-uses that could be
part of DR strategies and for what duration (or not). The length (time)
and the breadth (kW) are equally important. The price will determine
their willingness to participate and time will determine if they can
and by how much. This was also one of the thing we looked at the
recently concluded participating load pilot (PLP) that we conducted
with CAISO (see below).

    
    Open Automated Demand Response Communications in Demand
Response for Wholesale Ancillary Services
    
Kiliccote S., M.A. Piette, G. Ghatikar, Lawrence Berkeley National
Laboratory; E. Koch, D. Hennage, Akuacom; J. Hernandez, A. Chiu, O.
Sezgen, Pacific Gas and Electric Company; and J. Goodin, California
Independent Systems Operator. In the Proceedings of the Grid-Interop
Forum 2009, Denver, CO, November 17-19, 2009. LBNL-2945E. November 2009
    
http://drrc.lbl.gov/drrc-pubs-auto-dr.html
    

    
Moving forward, I think we should acknowledge this and be clear of
terminologies that are in use and have a certain meaning -- they should
retain their meaning as much as possible.

    
Thank you,
    
Rish




    

    
Phil Davis wrote:

    7B0A1723EC5943CA9B38B022FE759310@us.schneiderelectric.com" type="cite">
  
  
  
    Keep in mind that when the ISO's refer to price
interval in their reports and analysis documents, they are referring to
a monetary interval rather than a time based interval.  In other words,
there is a $15 price interval between an LMP of $45/mwh and $60/mwh. 
Most usage in analysis is asks questions like "at what price interval
do large facilities respond to DR signals".  These kinds of studies
influence incentives and subsidies, and may inform rate making in
regulated constructs.  However, in the markets, the actual prices
themselves are known well in advance of Dr events since they are set at
auctions.
    
  
     
    
  
    When modeling/forecasting for grid operations,
the ISO's will use this research to determine the likelihood of calling
an event and the cost of that event, given weather predictions at
various degrees of confidence (of the weather).  Because of the usage,
I would reverse the wording somewhat; i.e., that for a given time
interval, there should be a price associated with it.  Recipients would
use this data, especially in automated systems either to auto respond
or to signal managers if prices exceeded a pre-set level.
    
  
     
    
  
    This happens to be a period of rapid rules
change following a relative period of stability.  Predictions are
troublesome at best, but there seems to be a national trend toward
eliminating specific pricing for DR, and paying all parties the
generation equivalent of the energy product produced.  this is not
without controversy, so our wisest course might be to allow for showing
prices for DR and for the underlying energy.  This would support a
value calculation that encompasses both the overt value of DR plus the
value of the avoided purchase of energy for the same time interval.
    
  
     
    
  
    Phil Davis
  
    
  
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________
    
      Phil
Davis | Senior Manager | Schneider Electric
Demand Response Resource Center | 3103
Medlock Bridge Road, Ste 100 |
  Norcross, GA  30071 | (: 404.567.6090 |
  7: 678.672.2433 | Skype: pddcoo *: phil.davis@us.schneider-electric.com | : Website:  http://www.schneider-electric.com
    
  
     
    
  
    
  
    
  
     
    
  
     

    
  
    
  
    From: Girish
Ghatikar [mailto:GGhatikar@lbl.gov]
    
  Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:06 PM
    
  To: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    
  Subject: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"
    
  
    
  
    
  This came up during last
week's eMIX TC meeting -- What is the definition of price interval?
What elements/attributes are comprised in it?

    
For any price, there should be a standard "Time" factor associated with
it (unless the exception is there is "one" price for all periods).

    
  
    
I think we should make a key distinction of price schedule versus the
interval (if we ever can) and how the generic price intervals are
different from their definition in DR signals (the notion of DR
events).

    
Let's say for example, a price-responsive DR event in OpenADR may look
something like this (I am not saying this is how eMIX should address it
as the goal of sending the information and subsequent response may
differ) --

    
             
<p:drEventData>
    
          
<p:notificationTime>2010-02-08T15:17:21.000-08:00</p:notificationTime>
    
           
<p:startTime>2010-02-09T00:00:00.000-08:00</p:startTime>
    
           
<p:endTime>2010-02-09T23:59:59.000-08:00</p:endTime>
    
            <p:eventInfoInstances>
    
               
<p:eventInfoTypeID>PRICE_ABSOLUTE</p:eventInfoTypeID>
    
                <p:eventInfoName>price</p:eventInfoName>
    
                <p:eventInfoValues>
    
                    <p:value>0.03638841</p:value>
    
                    <p:timeOffset>0</p:timeOffset>
    
                </p:eventInfoValues>
    
        </p:eventInfoInstances>
    
        </p:drEventData>

    
What you see above is a definition of time slot (start and end time)
that has various attributes associated with it. Other attributes could
be for example, load shed, % shed, etc. However, all of these
attributes are associated with one time-slot notion, which is defined
by the period of DR event.

    
Thank you,
    
RIsh

    
      
  
    --
    
  
    
    
      
    
        Rish
Ghatikar
    
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
    
1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720
        GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1
510.486.6768 | +1 510.486.4089 [fax]     		
      
    
      
    
        
    
This email is intended for the addressee only and may contain
confidential information and should not be copied without permission.
If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as
soon as possible and delete the email from computer[s].     		
      
    
        
  
    
  

    
________________________________________________________________________
    
This email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageL
    
abs Email Security System.
    
________________________________________________________________________
    
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that
generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php 

    

    --
    

    
  
    
    
      
Rish Ghatikar
    
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
    
1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720
    
GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 | +1 510.486.4089 [fax]     		
    
    
    
    
      
    
This email is intended for the addressee only and may contain
confidential information and should not be copied without permission.
If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as
soon as possible and delete the email from computer[s].


  • 5.  RE: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-04-2010 01:19 
    















    


    Phil raised the concept
of monetary price interval - one application is in options trading:
    


    Strike price interval
    


    The normal price differential between
option strike prices. Equity options generally have $2.50 strike price
intervals (if the underlying stock price is below $25), $5.00 intervals (from
$25 to $200), and $10 intervals (above $200). LEAPS generally start with one
at-the-money, one in-the-money, and one out-of-the-money strike price. The
latter two are usually set 20%-25% away from the former. 
    


    


    I think we are in
agreement that Interval we use is defined by a start time and end time and if
there is any ambiguity in use of the term Interval we can call it a Time
Interval when necessary.
    


    


     A dictionary definition of Interval
relating to time is
    


    


    a space of time between
events or states
    


    


    Which works, I think.
    


    


    


    Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.
    


    101 First Street, Suite 552
    


    Los Altos, CA 94022
    


    650-949-5274
    


    cell: 408-621-2772
    


    ed@cazalet.com
    


    www.cazalet.com
    


    


    


    


    


    From: Girish Ghatikar [mailto:GGhatikar@lbl.gov]
    
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 5:29 PM
    
To: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    
Subject: Re: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"
    


    


    


    


    Phil,

    
Thanks for bringing this up and I think this is the issue with terminologies
and NOT the concept of use of time for intervals.

    
Based on my interactions during technology integration of CAISO real-time
market (RTM) with OpenADR, we have seen that intervals could be used in
different contexts. What you have is a definition of "price
intervals" is one element. For example, for CAISO, under
"prices" on -- http://oasis.caiso.com/mrtu-oasis/
-- the intervals are used for time, price, etc. as seen below by definitions.

    
"Interval Locational Marginal Prices: Five-minute Locational
Marginal Prices for all PNodes and all APNodes in $/MWh, for each five-minute
interval RTM. Posts the LMP, plus the Congestion, Loss and Energy
Components that makes up the LMP."
    
"Interval AS Clearing Prices: Ancillary Services Regional Shadow
Price for all Ancillary Service types for all binding AS Regions and
Sub-Regional Partitions. Posts 15-Minute price relevant to the next 15 minute binding
interval for RTM on a fifteen minute basis."

    
While I think the "monetary interval" you have is one important
element for DR, other element is also the "time interval." For
example, the time interval will determine the end-uses that could be part of DR
strategies and for what duration (or not). The length (time) and the breadth
(kW) are equally important. The price will determine their willingness to
participate and time will determine if they can and by how much. This was also
one of the thing we looked at the recently concluded participating load pilot
(PLP) that we conducted with CAISO (see below).

    
    Open
Automated Demand Response Communications in Demand Response for Wholesale
Ancillary Services
    
Kiliccote S., M.A. Piette, G. Ghatikar, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory;
E. Koch, D. Hennage, Akuacom; J. Hernandez, A. Chiu, O. Sezgen, Pacific Gas and
Electric Company; and J. Goodin, California Independent Systems Operator. In
the Proceedings of the Grid-Interop Forum 2009, Denver, CO, November 17-19,
2009. LBNL-2945E. November 2009
    
http://drrc.lbl.gov/drrc-pubs-auto-dr.html
    

    
Moving forward, I think we should acknowledge this and be clear of
terminologies that are in use and have a certain meaning -- they should retain
their meaning as much as possible.

    
Thank you,
    
Rish




    

    
Phil Davis wrote: 
    


    


    Keep in mind that when
the ISO's refer to price interval in their reports and analysis documents, they
are referring to a monetary interval rather than a time based interval. 
In other words, there is a $15 price interval between an LMP of $45/mwh and
$60/mwh.  Most usage in analysis is asks questions like "at what
price interval do large facilities respond to DR signals".  These
kinds of studies influence incentives and subsidies, and may inform rate making
in regulated constructs.  However, in the markets, the actual prices
themselves are known well in advance of Dr events since they are set at
auctions.
    


    


    


     
    


    


    


    When modeling/forecasting
for grid operations, the ISO's will use this research to determine the
likelihood of calling an event and the cost of that event, given weather
predictions at various degrees of confidence (of the weather).  Because of
the usage, I would reverse the wording somewhat; i.e., that for a given time
interval, there should be a price associated with it.  Recipients would
use this data, especially in automated systems either to auto respond or to
signal managers if prices exceeded a pre-set level.
    


    


    


     
    


    


    


    This happens to be a
period of rapid rules change following a relative period of stability. 
Predictions are troublesome at best, but there seems to be a national trend
toward eliminating specific pricing for DR, and paying all parties the
generation equivalent of the energy product produced.  this is not without
controversy, so our wisest course might be to allow for showing prices for DR
and for the underlying energy.  This would support a value calculation
that encompasses both the overt value of DR plus the value of the avoided
purchase of energy for the same time interval.
    


    


    


     
    


    


    


    Phil Davis 
    


    


    ________________________________________________________________________________________________
    
    Phil Davis | Senior Manager | Schneider Electric
Demand Response Resource Center | 3103 Medlock Bridge
Road, Ste 100 | Norcross,
GA  30071 | (: 404.567.6090 | 7: 678.672.2433 | Skype:
pddcoo *: phil.davis@us.schneider-electric.com | : Website:  http://www.schneider-electric.com
    


     
    


    


    


    


     
    


    


    


     
    


    


    


    


    


    


    From: Girish Ghatikar [mailto:GGhatikar@lbl.gov]
    
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:06 PM
    
To: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    
Subject: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"
    


    This came up during last week's eMIX
TC meeting -- What is the definition of price interval? What
elements/attributes are comprised in it?

    
For any price, there should be a standard "Time" factor associated
with it (unless the exception is there is "one" price for all
periods).


    
I think we should make a key distinction of price schedule versus the interval
(if we ever can) and how the generic price intervals are different from their
definition in DR signals (the notion of DR events).

    
Let's say for example, a price-responsive DR event in OpenADR may look
something like this (I am not saying this is how eMIX should address it as the
goal of sending the information and subsequent response may differ) --

    
        <p:drEventData>
    
          
<p:notificationTime>2010-02-08T15:17:21.000-08:00</p:notificationTime>
    
           
<p:startTime>2010-02-09T00:00:00.000-08:00</p:startTime>
    
           
<p:endTime>2010-02-09T23:59:59.000-08:00</p:endTime>
    
           
<p:eventInfoInstances>
    
               
<p:eventInfoTypeID>PRICE_ABSOLUTE</p:eventInfoTypeID>
    
               
<p:eventInfoName>price</p:eventInfoName>
    
               
<p:eventInfoValues>
    
                   
<p:value>0.03638841</p:value>
    
                   
<p:timeOffset>0</p:timeOffset>
    
               
</p:eventInfoValues>
    
        </p:eventInfoInstances>
    
        </p:drEventData>

    
What you see above is a definition of time slot (start and end time) that has
various attributes associated with it. Other attributes could be for example,
load shed, % shed, etc. However, all of these attributes are associated with
one time-slot notion, which is defined by the period of DR event.

    
Thank you,
    
RIsh
    


    


    -- 
    


    
 
    
  
  
    Rish
  Ghatikar
    
  Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
    
  1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720
    
  GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 |
  +1 510.486.4089 [fax] 
    
      		
 
    
 
    
  
  

    
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  • 6.  RE: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-04-2010 01:33 
    




    Girish,
    

     
    

    I 
believe we are in violent agreement, but I was being unintentionally 
obtuse.  When I read your example code, my initial impression was that 
the price was unique to that DR product and to the time in which it was 
called.  Based on your subsequent explanation, I believe we are in 
agreement that the relevant interval here is time.  There are separate 
streams of data, "event type" and "price", that are coincident with the time 
interval but are not a specific function of it; i.e., all are independent 
variables.
    

     
    

    This 
implies that a control authority could send a constant stream of data covering 
all events and times, and that the receiving system could be configured to 
select only that data relevant to the local facility.  
True?
    

     
    

    Your 
references to CAISO do inspire another question.  OpenADR together with the 
studies cited are only California oriented. Our OASIS  members in France 
(Laurent Guise and Francois Jammes) have asked if the work being done has any 
non US centric input.  Are you aware of any international 
applications?  Also, has there been any affirmative activity to see if 
OpenADR specs would function within the market rules of the other US 
ISO's?  ERCOT LaaR, PJM Regulation and ISO-NE FCM all require automated 
response and either are in the field or are close to implementation.  It 
will be difficult to promote OpenADR as a national standard if it does not 
encompass the parameters of these programs.  It probably does, but it's 
politically important to be able to refer to specific 
studies.
    

     
    

    Thanks!
    

     
    

    Phil

    

    

    
From: Girish Ghatikar [mailto:GGhatikar@lbl.gov]
    Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 8:29 PM
    To: 
emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: Re: [emix] Definition of a "Price 
Interval"

    

    Phil,

    Thanks for 
bringing this up and I think this is the issue with terminologies and NOT the 
concept of use of time for intervals.

    Based on my interactions 
during technology integration of CAISO     real-time market (RTM) with OpenADR, we have seen that intervals 
could be used in different contexts. What you have is a definition of "price 
intervals" is one element. For example, for CAISO, under "prices" on -- http://oasis.caiso.com/mrtu-oasis/ 
-- the intervals are used for time, price, etc. as seen below by 
definitions.

    "Interval Locational Marginal Prices: Five-minute 
Locational Marginal Prices for all PNodes and all APNodes in $/MWh, for each 
five-minute interval RTM. Posts the LMP, plus the Congestion, Loss and 
Energy Components that makes up the LMP."
    "Interval AS Clearing 
Prices: Ancillary Services Regional Shadow Price for all Ancillary Service 
types for all binding AS Regions and Sub-Regional Partitions. Posts 15-Minute 
price relevant to the next 15 minute binding interval for RTM on a 
fifteen minute basis."

    While I think the "monetary interval" you have 
is one important element for DR, other element is also the "time interval." 
For example, the time interval will determine the end-uses that could be part of 
DR strategies and for what duration (or not). The length (time) and the breadth 
(kW) are equally important. The price will determine their willingness to 
participate and time will determine if they can and by how much. This was also 
one of the thing we looked at the recently concluded participating load pilot 
(PLP) that we conducted with CAISO (see below).

    Open Automated 
Demand Response Communications in Demand Response for Wholesale Ancillary 
Services
    Kiliccote S., M.A. Piette, G. Ghatikar, Lawrence Berkeley 
National Laboratory; E. Koch, D. Hennage, Akuacom; J. Hernandez, A. Chiu, O. 
Sezgen, Pacific Gas and Electric Company; and J. Goodin, California Independent 
Systems Operator. In the Proceedings of the Grid-Interop Forum 2009, Denver, CO, 
November 17-19, 2009. LBNL-2945E. November 2009
    http://drrc.lbl.gov/drrc-pubs-auto-dr.html

    Moving forward, I think we should 
acknowledge this and be clear of terminologies that are in use and have a 
certain meaning -- they should retain their meaning as much as 
possible.

    Thank you,
    Rish





    Phil Davis 
wrote: 

    7B0A1723EC5943CA9B38B022FE759310@us.schneiderelectric.com" type="cite">
  
  
    Keep 
  in mind that when the ISO's refer to price interval in their reports and 
  analysis documents, they are referring to a monetary interval rather than a 
  time based interval.  In other words, there is a $15 price interval 
  between an LMP of $45/mwh and $60/mwh.  Most usage in analysis is asks 
  questions like "at what price interval do large facilities respond to DR 
  signals".  These kinds of studies influence incentives and subsidies, and 
  may inform rate making in regulated constructs.  However, in the markets, 
  the actual prices themselves are known well in advance of Dr events since they 
  are set at auctions.
    
  
     
    
  
    When 
  modeling/forecasting for grid operations, the ISO's will use this research to 
  determine the likelihood of calling an event and the cost of that event, given 
  weather predictions at various degrees of confidence (of the weather).  
  Because of the usage, I would reverse the wording somewhat; i.e., that for a 
  given time interval, there should be a price associated with it.  
  Recipients would use this data, especially in automated systems either to auto 
  respond or to signal managers if prices exceeded a pre-set 
  level.
    
  
     
    
  
    This 
  happens to be a period of rapid rules change following a relative period of 
  stability.  Predictions are troublesome at best, but there seems to be a 
  national trend toward eliminating specific pricing for DR, and paying all 
  parties the generation equivalent of the energy product produced.  this 
  is not without controversy, so our wisest course might be to allow for showing 
  prices for DR and for the underlying energy.  This would support a value 
  calculation that encompasses both the overt value of DR plus the value of the 
  avoided purchase of energy for the same time interval.
    
  
     
    
  
    Phil 
  Davis 
  
    
  
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Phil 
  Davis | Senior Manager | Schneider Electric Demand 
  Response Resource Center | 3103 
  Medlock Bridge Road, Ste 100 | 
  Norcross, 
  GA  30071 | (: 404.567.6090 | 7: 678.672.2433 | 
  Skype: pddcoo *: phil.davis@us.schneider-electric.com | : Website:  http://www.schneider-electric.com
    
  
     
    
  
     
    
  
     

    
  
    
  
    
  From: Girish Ghatikar [mailto:GGhatikar@lbl.gov]
    Sent: 
  Friday, April 02, 2010 8:06 PM
    To: emix@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: 
  [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    This came up during last week's eMIX TC 
  meeting -- What is the definition of price interval? What 
  elements/attributes are comprised in it?

    For any price, there 
  should be a standard "Time" factor associated with it (unless the exception is 
  there is "one" price for all periods).


    I think we should make a key 
  distinction of price schedule versus the interval (if we ever can) and how the 
  generic price intervals are different from their definition in DR signals (the 
  notion of DR events).

    Let's say for example, a price-responsive DR 
  event in OpenADR may look something like this (I am not saying this is how 
  eMIX should address it as the goal of sending the information and subsequent 
  response may differ) --

            
  <p:drEventData>
           
      
  <p:notificationTime>2010-02-08T15:17:21.000-08:00</p:notificationTime>
                
  <p:startTime>2010-02-09T00:00:00.000-08:00</p:startTime>
                
  <p:endTime>2010-02-09T23:59:59.000-08:00</p:endTime>
                
  <p:eventInfoInstances>
                    
  <p:eventInfoTypeID>PRICE_ABSOLUTE</p:eventInfoTypeID>
                    
  <p:eventInfoName>price</p:eventInfoName>
                    
  <p:eventInfoValues>
                        
  <p:value>0.03638841</p:value>
                        
  <p:timeOffset>0</p:timeOffset>
                    
  </p:eventInfoValues>
            
  </p:eventInfoInstances>
            
  </p:drEventData>

    What you see above is a definition of time slot 
  (start and end time) that has various attributes associated with it. Other 
  attributes could be for example, load shed, % shed, etc. However, all of these 
  attributes are associated with one time-slot notion, which is defined by the 
  period of DR event.

    Thank you,
    RIsh

    
  
    --
    
  
    
    
    
    
      Rish Ghatikar
    Lawrence Berkeley 
        National Laboratory
    1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 
        94720
    GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 | +1 
        510.486.4089 [fax] 
    
    
    
      
    This email is intended for the addressee only and may contain 
        confidential information and should not be copied without permission. If 
        you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as 
        possible and delete the email from computer[s]. 
  

    ________________________________________________________________________
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  email has been scanned for SPAM content and Viruses by the MessageL
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    --
    

    
  
  
    
    Rish Ghatikar
    Lawrence Berkeley 
      National Laboratory
    1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 
      94720
    GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 | 
      +1 510.486.4089 [fax] 
    
  
    
    
    This email is intended for the addressee only and may contain 
      confidential information and should not be copied without permission. If 
      you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as 
      possible and delete the email from computer[s]. 


    ________________________________________________________________________
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  • 7.  Re: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-04-2010 20:54 
    Phil,

I agree that this would be a good way of moving forward (so are thoughts 
from Ed Cazalet).

On your question of sending a constant stream data for all events. I am 
not fully certain how the RTP programs will be structured within the 
service providers. WIthin CAISO there are many RTM prices. Hence, I 
think we should be independent of how the programs gets structured in 
future and the data models be flexible enough to allow that. I agree 
with your other part of the question that the receiving systems (e.g., 
clients within facilities) should be able to select relevant information.

I'd be glad to have a separate discussion on current use of OpenADR 
within California and its potential within other areas you've discussed. 
In summary, we've initiated discussion within some of these areas and 
looking at that opportunity. The PLP was funded by PG&E and generally, 
our resources/funds are mostly for California programs. I'd be very 
interested to get other agencies engaged for wider applications.

Thanks,
Rish

Phil Davis wrote:
> Girish,
>  
> I believe we are in violent agreement, but I was being unintentionally 
> obtuse.  When I read your example code, my initial impression was that 
> the price was unique to that DR product and to the time in which it 
> was called.  Based on your subsequent explanation, I believe we are in 
> agreement that the relevant interval here is time.  There are separate 
> streams of data, "event type" and "price", that are coincident with 
> the time interval but are not a specific function of it; i.e., all are 
> independent variables.
>  
> This implies that a control authority could send a constant stream of 
> data covering all events and times, and that the receiving system 
> could be configured to select only that data relevant to the local 
> facility.  True?
>  
> Your references to CAISO do inspire another question.  OpenADR 
> together with the studies cited are only California oriented. Our 
> OASIS  members in France (Laurent Guise and Francois Jammes) have 
> asked if the work being done has any non US centric input.  Are you 
> aware of any international applications?  Also, has there been any 
> affirmative activity to see if OpenADR specs would function within the 
> market rules of the other US ISO's?  ERCOT LaaR, PJM Regulation and 
> ISO-NE FCM all require automated response and either are in the field 
> or are close to implementation.  It will be difficult to promote 
> OpenADR as a national standard if it does not encompass the parameters 
> of these programs.  It probably does, but it's politically important 
> to be able to refer to specific studies.
>  
> Thanks!
>  
> Phil
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Girish Ghatikar [mailto:GGhatikar@lbl.gov]
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 03, 2010 8:29 PM
> *To:* emix@lists.oasis-open.org
> *Subject:* Re: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"
>
> Phil,
>
> Thanks for bringing this up and I think this is the *issue with 
> terminologies and NOT the concept of use of time for intervals*.
>
> Based on my interactions during technology integration of CAISO 
> real-time market (RTM) with OpenADR, we have seen that intervals could 
> be used in different contexts. What you have is a definition of "price 
> intervals" is one element. For example, for CAISO, under "prices" on 
> -- http://oasis.caiso.com/mrtu-oasis/ -- the intervals are used for 
> time, price, etc. as seen below by definitions.
>
> *"Interval Locational Marginal Prices*: Five-minute Locational 
> Marginal Prices for all PNodes and all APNodes in $/MWh, for each 
> *five-minute interval RTM*. Posts the LMP, plus the Congestion, Loss 
> and Energy Components that makes up the LMP."
> *"Interval AS Clearing Prices*: Ancillary Services Regional Shadow 
> Price for all Ancillary Service types for all binding AS Regions and 
> Sub-Regional Partitions. Posts 15-Minute price relevant to the next 15 
> minute *binding interval for RTM* on a fifteen minute basis."
>
> *While I think the "monetary interval" you have is one important 
> element for DR*, other element is also the "time interval." For 
> example, the time interval will determine the end-uses that could be 
> part of DR strategies and for what duration (or not). The length 
> (time) and the breadth (kW) are equally important. The price will 
> determine their willingness to participate and time will determine if 
> they can and by how much. This was also one of the thing we looked at 
> the recently concluded participating load pilot (PLP) that we 
> conducted with CAISO (see below).
>
> *Open Automated Demand Response Communications in Demand Response for 
> Wholesale Ancillary Services*
> Kiliccote S., M.A. Piette, G. Ghatikar, Lawrence Berkeley National 
> Laboratory; E. Koch, D. Hennage, Akuacom; J. Hernandez, A. Chiu, O. 
> Sezgen, Pacific Gas and Electric Company; and J. Goodin, California 
> Independent Systems Operator. In the Proceedings of the Grid-Interop 
> Forum 2009, Denver, CO, November 17-19, 2009. LBNL-2945E. November 2009
> http://drrc.lbl.gov/drrc-pubs-auto-dr.html
>
> Moving forward, I think we should acknowledge this and be clear of 
> terminologies that are in use and have a certain meaning -- they 
> should retain their meaning as much as possible.
>
> Thank you,
> Rish
>
>
>
>
>
> Phil Davis wrote:
>> Keep in mind that when the ISO's refer to price interval in their 
>> reports and analysis documents, they are referring to a monetary 
>> interval rather than a time based interval.  In other words, there is 
>> a $15 price interval between an LMP of $45/mwh and $60/mwh.  Most 
>> usage in analysis is asks questions like "at what price interval do 
>> large facilities respond to DR signals".  These kinds of studies 
>> influence incentives and subsidies, and may inform rate making in 
>> regulated constructs.  However, in the markets, the actual prices 
>> themselves are known well in advance of Dr events since they are set 
>> at auctions.
>>  
>> When modeling/forecasting for grid operations, the ISO's will use 
>> this research to determine the likelihood of calling an event and the 
>> cost of that event, given weather predictions at various degrees of 
>> confidence (of the weather).  Because of the usage, I would reverse 
>> the wording somewhat; i.e., that for a given time interval, there 
>> should be a price associated with it.  Recipients would use this 
>> data, especially in automated systems either to auto respond or to 
>> signal managers if prices exceeded a pre-set level.
>>  
>> This happens to be a period of rapid rules change following a 
>> relative period of stability.  Predictions are troublesome at best, 
>> but there seems to be a national trend toward eliminating specific 
>> pricing for DR, and paying all parties the generation equivalent of 
>> the energy product produced.  this is not without controversy, so our 
>> wisest course might be to allow for showing prices for DR and for the 
>> underlying energy.  This would support a value calculation that 
>> encompasses both the overt value of DR plus the value of the avoided 
>> purchase of energy for the same time interval.
>>  
>> Phil Davis
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________________________________
>> *Phil Davis** | Senior Manager *| Schneider Electric Demand Response 
>> Resource Center | 3103 Medlock Bridge Road, Ste 100 | Norcross, GA  
>> 30071 | (: 404.567.6090 | 7: 678.672.2433 | Skype: pddcoo 
>> *: phil.davis@us.schneider-electric.com 
>>


  • 8.  RE: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-05-2010 14:06 
    










    


    Rish, Phil,
    


    


    Based on your comments, here are my thoughts. 
    


    ·        
Some DR or price programs have "scheduled
events" versus "unscheduled events". By that I mean, I can know
that every day at 4pm I will get the next 48 hours of estimated hourly prices,
and that every hour I will get an update on the next 12 hours with the next two
hours fixed. So, if those are events, then they are scheduled events like
getting the mail delivery. Even DR programs may have fixed time intervals (or
patterns) when called. And DR programs are scheduled (called) maybe day ahead.
So, we have the case of everything fixed and known ahead, as for RTP, and
alternatively, unknown time intervals (varying lengths) scheduled ahead of time
by some notice (could be very short notice). Does that leave out any DR program
or RTP program? 
    


    ·        
Seems for DR events, we need a flexible time
interval with contained event parameters (per Rish's original email).  But
do we need this structure if we know the time intervals ahead of time? Do we
always need end time? We should have a format that allows reduction to only
giving start time, no end, and only giving the start time of the first
interval, and not of subsequent (maybe giving the constant time interval
length). But maybe the only advantage is conserving bits (and this is not worth
much)?
    


    ·        
There should be a program identifier at the
start of a message so I can choose to pay attention or not. Or I guess you get
the message (pull/push) only if in that program.
    


    ·        
Then a message type, since a program might have
different basic messages, i.e., the notice of event vs. the actual data, or the
48 hour price data vs. the 12 hour data.  
    


    Sorry if these are things discussed before...
    



    
David
    


    



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


  • 9.  Re: [emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"

    Posted 04-06-2010 22:54 
    David,

As I understand your question -- I think the transaction and data models 
that we develop should account for "scheduled" and "unscheduled" DR 
events. In a general scenario, one may not call the unscheduled event as 
a DR event as it typically associates with the load serving entity 
(e.g., utility/ISO) issuing a DR event for reliability or price 
responsive DR. Hence for RTP, I see that this unscheduled event as a 
"streaming" prices (could be day ahead hourly, 15-minute etc., or day of 
hourly, 15-minute, etc) that has a fixed time and duration (or open) and 
can be issued continuously. The actual DR programs (e.g., dynamic 
pricing) could use the same data models to communicate DR events as 
needed. This is the challenge to understand various markets and programs 
and structure our transaction and data models.

Having a framework for structure helps in automation for systems to read 
and respond as hard coding the time intervals would mean re-programming 
every time the structure changes. E.g., (in Auto-DR programs, few 
customers hard-coded their strategies start time based on when a 
pre-determined time the event pending signal was received -- it now 
requires change as the event start time for new program is different.). 
End time is very useful, especially for larger industrial facilities to 
decide how much duration they can actually participate without impacting 
their business operations (there are other reasons as well).

Yes, there should be a program identifier and that follows the message 
type.

I think we're all taking similar language and these discussion are very 
helpful!

Thanks,
Rish


Holmberg, David wrote:
>
> Rish, Phil,
>
>  
>
> Based on your comments, here are my thoughts.
>
> ·         Some DR or price programs have "scheduled events" versus 
> "unscheduled events". By that I mean, I can know that every day at 4pm 
> I will get the next 48 hours of estimated hourly prices, and that 
> every hour I will get an update on the next 12 hours with the next two 
> hours fixed. So, if those are events, then they are scheduled events 
> like getting the mail delivery. Even DR programs may have fixed time 
> intervals (or patterns) when called. And DR programs are scheduled 
> (called) maybe day ahead. So, we have the case of everything fixed and 
> known ahead, as for RTP, and alternatively, unknown time intervals 
> (varying lengths) scheduled ahead of time by some notice (could be 
> very short notice). Does that leave out any DR program or RTP program?
>
> ·         Seems for DR events, we need a flexible time interval with 
> contained event parameters (per Rish's original email).  But do we 
> need this structure if we know the time intervals ahead of time? Do we 
> always need end time? We should have a format that allows reduction to 
> only giving start time, no end, and only giving the start time of the 
> first interval, and not of subsequent (maybe giving the constant time 
> interval length). But maybe the only advantage is conserving bits (and 
> this is not worth much)?
>
> ·         There should be a program identifier at the start of a 
> message so I can choose to pay attention or not. Or I guess you get 
> the message (pull/push) only if in that program.
>
> ·         Then a message type, since a program might have different 
> basic messages, i.e., the notice of event vs. the actual data, or the 
> 48 hour price data vs. the 12 hour data.  
>
> Sorry if these are things discussed before...
>
>
> David
>
>  
>
> 
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message


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