Hi Chris,
I see no real difference with this delegate proposal and an operation within the workflow except that operation with artifact type is something we are working
on and could provide portable and normative support.
We can write a TOSCA 1.1 workflow with set_state at the end and a single call to the BPMN artifact operation, that is really similar to what you propose but leveraging
planned 1.2 standard definitions (once we finish the artifact type and artifact executor definition). If not we will end up with a delegate that orchestrator does not know how to handle, delegate is intended for orchestrator provided nodes (matched abstract
nodes – so specific to orchestrator). Or only some specific impl will know how to handle them? And this will be custom per Impl and for no more benefits that the simple artifact support that we proposed.
Once again, I really think that we should work on instance model and API before we go further. And also complete the work on custom artifact type support because
even this is not fully completed yet and seems on hold since we discuss this BPMN/BPEL elements rather moving forward. I really believe that more than making some people happy we should focus on trying to build a reliable standard. This is exactly why we worked
on the workflow spec in 1.1. because there where nothing people could really rely on in previous spec. Declarative workflows ordering was not clearly defined and saying that multiple workflows languages could be consider was not a reliable statement and actually
just lead us to the point we are now with people making their own choices out of the TC and trying to find a reconciliation rather than moving forward on the multiple challenges we should address.
I think that in this perspective the work started on artifact type support is critical and we should complete that work rather than trying to solve all issues
and especially elements that will not bring more to TOSCA but just please people (I am still not seeing anything that is TOSCA compliant that cannot be done with the actual workflow language – and not TOSCA compliant elements should currently be supported
through specific artifacts). I still feel on my own that other workflows language will weaken TOSCA as they are not compliant with the TOSCA way to define and call operations and especially the current artifact type work.
That said I don’t say we should not consider the support of specific workflow languages in the future, I just feel that we should not make wrong choices to please
people while some elements are not ready yet in TOSCA.
Anyway, we just don’t agree here I guess,
Luc
From:
Chris Lauwers <
lauwers@ubicity.com>
Date: Friday, 24 March 2017 at 18:29
To: Luc Boutier <
luc.boutier@fastconnect.fr>, "zhao.huabing@zte.com.cn" <
zhao.huabing@zte.com.cn>
Cc: Matthew Rutkowski <
mrutkows@us.ibm.com>, "tosca@lists.oasis-open.org" <
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org>, "claude.noshpitz@att.com" <
claude.noshpitz@att.com>, Paul Lipton <
paul.lipton@ca.com>, shitao li <
lishitao@huawei.com>, "meng.zhaoxing1@zte.com.cn"
<
meng.zhaoxing1@zte.com.cn>
Subject: RE: [tosca] Re:[tosca] RE: Re:[tosca] Groups - Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx uploaded
Hi Luc,
While I generally agree with the “walk before you run” approach, I believe there might be a very simple way to accommodate what Huabing wants. How about the following:
-
We already have a “delegate” keyname on workflow activities. What if in addition, we also allowed a “delegate” keyname on a top-level workflow definition? This would
signal to the orchestrator (in a standardized way) that the workflow would be taken over entirely by an external entity. The argument of the “delegate” keyname would be the artifact name of the BPNM or BPEL workflow (for which we would obviously still need
to define a processor).
-
I also agree that in order to do this correctly, we will have to standardize an API to the instance model, and more sophisticated TOSCA workflows could benefit from
such an API as well. However, the API available to TOSCA workflows today is limited to “set_state” and “call_operation”. At the very least, we could make those operations available to external workflows, which would put these external workflows on-par with
TOSCA workflows.
While this doesn’t entirely address your “portability” concerns, at least it provides a standard way for template designers to signal to the orchestrator that responsibility
for orchestration needs to be delegated to an external workflow engine.
thanks,
Chris
From: BOUTIER, LUC [mailto:
luc.boutier@fastconnect.fr]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 11:31 PM
To: Chris Lauwers <
lauwers@ubicity.com>;
zhao.huabing@zte.com.cn Cc:
mrutkows@us.ibm.com;
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org;
claude.noshpitz@att.com;
paul.lipton@ca.com;
lishitao@huawei.com;
meng.zhaoxing1@zte.com.cn Subject: Re: [tosca] Re:[tosca] RE: Re:[tosca] Groups - Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx uploaded
Chris, Huabing,
I think that we should not constraint 1.2 on custom workflow support and that we should try to go step by step:
·
We still don’t have artifact type executors completed and I think this is the first step we need to complete
·
We still don’t have an instance model
·
And once instance model is defined we will need also an instance model API to be defined and agreed
Instance model and Instance model APIs are pre-requisite for any kind of workflow extensions are workflow execution extensions will mean workflow engines external to the TOSCA orchestrator,
or there won’t be portability as we cannot expect or have as a pre-requisite for TOSCA orchestrator to support any kind of Workflow languages especially open workflow languages supporting extensions (meaning not supported everywhere).
So, my suggestion is that the 1.2 target should define a way to execute custom operation types in a portable way and we need to have this work completed (this is the great work started
by Chris). BPMN or BPEL in 1.2 will be artifact types with the limitations Chris mentioned.
As we say in France « Il ne faut pas mettre la charrue avant les bœufs »
Luc
From:
<
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org > on behalf of Chris Lauwers <
lauwers@ubicity.com >
Date: Thursday, 23 March 2017 at 05:58
To: "
zhao.huabing@zte.com.cn " <
zhao.huabing@zte.com.cn >
Cc: Matthew Rutkowski <
mrutkows@us.ibm.com >, "
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org " <
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org >, "
claude.noshpitz@att.com "
<
claude.noshpitz@att.com >, Paul Lipton <
paul.lipton@ca.com >, shitao li <
lishitao@huawei.com >, "
meng.zhaoxing1@zte.com.cn "
<
meng.zhaoxing1@zte.com.cn >
Subject: RE: [tosca] Re:[tosca] RE: Re:[tosca] Groups - Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx uploaded
I’m not sure about the timeframe. Matt should chime in on this.
Thanks,
Chris
From:
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org [ mailto:
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org ]
On Behalf Of
zhao.huabing@zte.com.cn Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 9:57 PM
To: Chris Lauwers <
lauwers@ubicity.com >
Cc:
mrutkows@us.ibm.com ;
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org ;
claude.noshpitz@att.com ;
paul.lipton@ca.com ;
lishitao@huawei.com ;
meng.zhaoxing1@zte.com.cn Subject: [tosca] Re:[tosca] RE: Re:[tosca] Groups - Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx uploaded
Hi Chris,
Thanks for your explanation.
That's exactly what I'm curious about.
So we're planing planning to add arbitrary artifact implementations for the entire workflow of the topology template in 1.2, such as BPMN, BPEL, Node-RED,Ballerina etc.?
Thanks,
Huabing
Original Mail
Sender:
<
lauwers@ubicity.com > ;
To: zhaohuabing10201488;
<
mrutkows@us.ibm.com > ;
CC:
<
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org > ;
<
claude.noshpitz@att.com > ;
<
paul.lipton@ca.com > ;
<
lishitao@huawei.com > ;MengZhaoXing10024238;
Date: 2017/03/23 12:21
Subject: [tosca] RE: Re:[tosca] Groups - Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx uploaded
Hi Huabing,
Yes, your understanding of the plan is correct.
However, in the current version of the spec, artifacts can only be used to provide implementations for operations. For example,
this means that you will be able to specify a BPEL workflow to implement the “create” operation on the Standard lifecycle operation.
We currently don’t have a mechanism to use artifacts as implementations for entire workflows. This will need to get added in a
later version.
Thanks,
Chris
From:
zhao.huabing@zte.com.cn [ mailto:
zhao.huabing@zte.com.cn ]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 4:41 AM
To:
mrutkows@us.ibm.com ; Chris Lauwers <
lauwers@ubicity.com >
Cc:
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org ;
claude.noshpitz@att.com ;
paul.lipton@ca.com ;
lishitao@huawei.com ;
meng.zhaoxing1@zte.com.cn Subject: Re:[tosca] Groups - Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx uploaded
Hi Matt, Chris,
I haven't find any update about this in my inbox, did I miss anything?
I guess the idea is that TOSCA could take BPMN/BPEL as an artifact type and it can be executed by an artifact processor(workflow execution engine) provided by orchestrator, right?
Thanks,
Huabing
Original Mail
Sender: zhaohuabing10201488
To: <
mrutkows@us.ibm.com > ;
<
lauwers@ubicity.com > ;
CC: <
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org > ;
<
claude.noshpitz@att.com > ;
<
paul.lipton@ca.com > ;
<
lishitao@huawei.com > ;MengZhaoXing10024238;
Date: 2017/03/16 09:54
Subject: Re:[tosca] Groups - Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx uploaded
Hi Matt,
Thanks for uploading the slide deck.
Do we have a minutes for this meeting? I'm still improving my English skill, so I have difficulty to get all the points of everyone in this meeting.
Is the conclusion that we'll incorporate BPMN/BPEL workflow as artifact in the later version of simple YAML and Chris are working on that?
Thanks,
Huabing
Sender: <
mrutkows@us.ibm.com > ;
To: <
tosca@lists.oasis-open.org > ;
Date: 2017/03/15 23:16
Subject: [tosca] Groups - Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx uploaded
Submitter's message
Parts of these slides were presented during the 2017-03-14 Simple Profile WG meeting.
-- Mr. Matthew Rutkowski
Document Name :
Issue_TOSCA318_Lack of BPMN BPEL support-v1.0.pptx
No description provided.
Download Latest Revision
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Submitter : Mr. Matthew Rutkowski
Group : OASIS Topology and Orchestration Specification for Cloud Applications (TOSCA) TC
Folder : Working Documents
Date submitted : 2017-03-15 08:15:37