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Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11June
Alan - I think that in Eilon's scenario it is the consumer that implements
the search service and only uses the producer to display the results. That
way the consumer has full control.
Best regards
Carsten Leue
-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B�blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
|---------+---------------------------->
| | Alan Kropp |
| | <akropp@epicentri|
| | c.com> |
| | |
| | 06/11/2002 09:04 |
| | PM |
| | Please respond to|
| | Alan Kropp |
| | |
|---------+---------------------------->
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: "'Eilon Reshef'" <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com>, Alan Kropp <akropp@epicentric.com>, wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, |
| wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org |
| cc: |
| Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June |
| |
| |
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Hi Eilon,
It seems to me the Consumer still doesn't really need a say in how the
Producer implements the search service runtime model. It's true that if
the Producer creates all of these transient entities, there is the issue of
when it is "safe" to destroy them. Transient entities don't have an
inherent lifecycle, but the sessions which talk to them do...so, when these
sessions have timed out, the Producer is able to determine that a transient
entity is no longer a party to any active session. Would it be valid to
say that the Producer, at that point, may assume the transient entity is
stale and destroy it? I guess this is a variation on reference counting/GC
that Java developers are already familiar with.
I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the Producer to employ
intelligence like this to efficiently manage its entities.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Eilon Reshef [mailto:eilon.reshef@webcollage.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:36 AM
To: 'Alan Kropp'; wsia@lists.oasis-open.org;
wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11 June
Alan,
I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for
hotels, that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each
hotel found.
Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number
of results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies
of the map service. If we allow the Producer to determine the
persistence state of those maps, that would mean that someone will
have to take care of the lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't,
because the page may be gone without the Consumer never knowing about
it (the user closes the browser window). The Producer can't, because
it can't tell whether the Consumer has stored a reference to those
maps as part of a design-time description of a user page.
Is that along the lines of what you were looking for?
Eilon
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Kropp [mailto:akropp@epicentric.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:18 PM
To: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
for Tuesday 11 June
I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent
vs. a transient
entity to be a little troubling.
Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to
an _entity_
(be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle
to direct
subsequent requests to?
Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely
Producer
concerns? I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8)
that the
only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling
"createTransientEntity" is
out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation
with the
Producer. This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer
should
advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right?
Presumably the
Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s)
the Consumer
SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently.
I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support
pushing the
persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the
Consumer.
Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a
single
"createEntity" call.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM
To: Gil Tayar
Cc: thomas klein6; 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org';
'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
for
Tuesday 11 June
Gil -
1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or
persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it
wants to
share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer
create
sessions on the fly.
4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to
the consumer
who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g
think of
portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a
session
with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two
shops of the
same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions
and only the
consumer could know what portlet shares what session.
5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a
getFragment call.
The entity is created whenever necessary.
6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on
the provider)
and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote
portlet that
does not store any data in a DB.
Hope that helped.
Best regards
Carsten Leue
-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B�blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
|---------+---------------------------->
| | Gil Tayar |
| | <Gil.Tayar@webcol|
| | lage.com> |
| | |
| | 06/11/2002 09:28 |
| | AM |
| | Please respond to|
| | Gil Tayar |
| | |
|---------+---------------------------->
>
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| To: Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
|
| cc: "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
<wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
<wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, Thomas|
| Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
|
| Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint
interfaces] agenda
for Tuesday 11 June
|
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>
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Carsten, could you clarify some things for me?
1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the
Consumer do?
2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session?
3. MUST it do so?
4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per
session or
multiple sessions per entities?
5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient
entity?
6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient
entity?
Gil
-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45
To: Alan Kropp
Cc: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org';
thomas
klein6
Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
for
Tuesday 11 June
Alan - some first thoughts
1. the general concept is that entities (transient or
persistent) and
sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per
session and
(at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per
entity. An example
for the first case would be that entities share session data
within the
same user request. An example for the second case are portlets
on a common
page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple
users.
A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its
data does
not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life
cycle.
2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal
that batch
processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and
will look
it up until the call.
Best regards
Carsten Leue
-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B�blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
|---------+---------------------------->
| | Alan Kropp |
| | <akropp@epicentri|
| | c.com> |
| | |
| | 06/11/2002 01:54 |
| | AM |
| | Please respond to|
| | Alan Kropp |
| | |
|---------+---------------------------->
>
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|
|
| To: "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
<wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
<wsia@lists.oasis-open.org> |
| cc:
|
| Subject: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces]
agenda for
Tuesday 11 June
|
|
|
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|
>
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I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged
document Rich and
Carsten put together.
The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists
are:
1. What is the difference between transient entities and
sessions, and is
there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the
specification?
2. There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in
the method
signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network
efficiency.
Call-in numbers:
USA Toll Free Number: 877-718-0936
USA Toll Number: +1-712-923-6878
PARTICIPANT PASSCODE: 563151
Alan
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