CTI STIX Subcommittee

I'd this is the prevailing thought, then I'm fine with going down the open vocabularies path. It will mean that solutions will need to pivot 'outside' of the STIX model I.e. by creating their own nodes in their internal databases based on the common selected field values, rather than directly via the kill chain TLO id, but that's not a big problem. My only concern would be enabling the field values to match easily... In other words making them case insensitive for string matching purposes. Cheers Terry MacDonald Cosive On 4/06/2016 05:24, "Piazza, Rich" < rpiazza@mitre.org > wrote: Hi everybody,   I thought I would make some comments on kill chains to get the discussion going :-)   Starting with STIX 1.x, Kill Chains and Kill Chain Phases were basically TTPs.  The properties of each are at http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainType/ and http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainPhaseType/ .  A kill chain was defined in a STIX document, and its phases were referred to by other TLOs (Indicators).  Because there is no common repository of STIX objects (yet??), all producers would define common kill chains again and again.   It has been proposed that in STIX 2.0, we do not represent kill chains/kill chain phases using TLOs, but instead certain TLOs would have a field called “kill_chain_phases” (of type list of kill-chain-phase) to associate kill chain phases with the TLO (e.g., Attack_Pattern, Indicator?).   Here is the way the kill-chain-phase type would be specified.   Property Name Type Description kill_chain_name (required) string The name of the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in kill-chain-name-ov located in Vocabulary section. phase_name (required) string The name of the phase in the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in phase-name-ov located in Vocabulary section.   Kill-chain-name-ov and phase-name-ov will contain suggested values for well-established kill chains (LM, Mandiant, etc.).  Because both fields are filled with open vocabularies it is possible for producers to define their own kill chains.   The gap analysis between using TLOs (assuming we would use the STIX 1.x model) and open vocabularies is:   Concept                 TLOs            open v ocabs   URI reference                   yes             not supported Number of phases                yes             not supported “Phase part of” relationship    yes             implicit Hierarchical/Circular KCs       no              no Defining new KCs                yes             yes, via open vocabularies Ordinality of phases            yes             not supported   Questions:   Are the “not supported” concepts needed? There seems to be an assumption that doing any kind of analysis, like pivoting, can only be done with TLOs.  If this is your opinion, could you discuss your reasoning?? Other thoughts?   Rich  

That is a good point, we already have this statement in the Open Vocabulary section: SHOULD conform to the naming pattern defined for all literals contained in Section TODO: all lowercase, with dashes “-” to separate words. Is should sufficient... Or do we need to look at making it a must . Personally I would  be fine with making it a must.   Thanks, Bret Bret Jordan CISSP Director of Security Architecture and Standards Office of the CTO Blue Coat Systems PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg.   On Jun 3, 2016, at 18:46, Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com > wrote: I'd this is the prevailing thought, then I'm fine with going down the open vocabularies path. It will mean that solutions will need to pivot 'outside' of the STIX model I.e. by creating their own nodes in their internal databases based on the common selected field values, rather than directly via the kill chain TLO id, but that's not a big problem. My only concern would be enabling the field values to match easily... In other words making them case insensitive for string matching purposes. Cheers Terry MacDonald Cosive On 4/06/2016 05:24, Piazza, Rich < rpiazza@mitre.org > wrote: Hi everybody,   I thought I would make some comments on kill chains to get the discussion going :-)   Starting with STIX 1.x, Kill Chains and Kill Chain Phases were basically TTPs.  The properties of each are at http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainType/ and http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainPhaseType/ .  A kill chain was defined in a STIX document, and its phases were referred to by other TLOs (Indicators).  Because there is no common repository of STIX objects (yet??), all producers would define common kill chains again and again.   It has been proposed that in STIX 2.0, we do not represent kill chains/kill chain phases using TLOs, but instead certain TLOs would have a field called “kill_chain_phases” (of type list of kill-chain-phase) to associate kill chain phases with the TLO (e.g., Attack_Pattern, Indicator?).   Here is the way the kill-chain-phase type would be specified.   Property Name Type Description kill_chain_name (required) string The name of the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in kill-chain-name-ov located in Vocabulary section. phase_name (required) string The name of the phase in the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in phase-name-ov located in Vocabulary section.   Kill-chain-name-ov and phase-name-ov will contain suggested values for well-established kill chains (LM, Mandiant, etc.).  Because both fields are filled with open vocabularies it is possible for producers to define their own kill chains.   The gap analysis between using TLOs (assuming we would use the STIX 1.x model) and open vocabularies is:   Concept                 TLOs            open v ocabs   URI reference                   yes             not supported Number of phases                yes             not supported “Phase part of” relationship    yes             implicit Hierarchical/Circular KCs       no              no Defining new KCs                yes             yes, via open vocabularies Ordinality of phases            yes             not supported   Questions:   Are the “not supported” concepts needed? There seems to be an assumption that doing any kind of analysis, like pivoting, can only be done with TLOs.  If this is your opinion, could you discuss your reasoning?? Other thoughts?   Rich  
Original Message----- From: cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org [ mailto:cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org ] On Behalf Of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:41 PM To: Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org >; 'Jordan, Bret' < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com > Cc: Allan Thomson < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >; Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com >; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel) < tebedwel@cisco.com >; cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX   It's a good question, and unfortunately not one that I have a clear response for.  There's pros and cons to both approaches.  CVs are obviously easier to represent and from a system perspective, it may be better to have the kill chain phase as a property of the indicator or observation rather than as something that it links to.  On the flip-side kill chain and kill chain phase objects can provide more flexibility.    I'd be interested in seeing a discussion on the approaches before providing a firm opinion.  

I would keep it as a SHOULD:
 
a)       
That’s what we do everywhere else (controlled and open vocabularies)
b)       
They’re just design patterns, IMO we shouldn’t enforce design patterns.
 
If implementations want to do a case-insensitive pivot they can…I would see the broader problem being people name something “recon” and others use “reconnaissance”, which we can help solve
with the open vocabulary. I’d see it as something that we release as a committee note after 2.0 is out. We can define some popular kill chains and what names you should use for them and their phases.
 
FWIW I really like this new approach. I think it’s a good balance of capability while still getting us out of the business of defining such a widely varied construct structurally.
 
John
 

From:
"Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>
Date: Friday, June 3, 2016 at 11:13 PM
To: Terry MacDonald <terry.macdonald@cosive.com>
Cc: Rich Piazza <rpiazza@mitre.org>, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" <tebedwel@cisco.com>, "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org>, "Katz, Gary CTR
DC3/DCCI" <Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil>
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX


 



That is a good point, we already have this statement in the Open Vocabulary section:

 


SHOULD
conform to the naming pattern defined for all literals contained in Section TODO: all lowercase, with dashes “-” to separate words.







Is "should" sufficient... Or do we need to look at making it a "must". Personally I would  be fine with making it a must.  







 


Thanks,


 


Bret



 


 


 



Bret Jordan CISSP

Director of Security Architecture and Standards Office of the CTO


Blue Coat Systems



PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050


"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg." 









 



On Jun 3, 2016, at 18:46, Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com > wrote:

 

I'd this is the prevailing thought, then I'm fine with going down the open vocabularies path. It will mean that solutions will need to pivot 'outside' of the STIX model I.e. by
creating their own nodes in their internal databases based on the common selected field values, rather than directly via the kill chain TLO id, but that's not a big problem.
My only concern would be enabling the field values to match easily... In other words making them case insensitive for string matching purposes.
Cheers
Terry MacDonald
Cosive

On 4/06/2016 05:24, "Piazza, Rich" < rpiazza@mitre.org > wrote:



Hi everybody,


 


I thought I would make some comments on kill chains to get the discussion going :-)


 


Starting with STIX 1.x, Kill Chains and Kill Chain Phases were basically TTPs.  The properties of each are at

http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainType/ and

http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainPhaseType/ .  A kill chain was defined in a STIX document, and its phases were referred to by other TLOs (Indicators).  Because there is no common repository
of STIX objects (yet??), all producers would define common kill chains again and again.


 


It has been proposed that in STIX 2.0, we do not represent kill chains/kill chain phases using TLOs, but instead certain TLOs would have a field called “kill_chain_phases” (of type list
of kill-chain-phase) to associate kill chain phases with the TLO (e.g., Attack_Pattern, Indicator?).


 


Here is the way the kill-chain-phase type would be specified.


 





Property Name


Type


Description




kill_chain_name (required)


string


The name of the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in
kill-chain-name-ov
located in Vocabulary section.




phase_name (required)


string


The name of the phase in the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in
phase-name-ov
located in Vocabulary section.





 


Kill-chain-name-ov and phase-name-ov will contain suggested values for well-established kill chains (LM, Mandiant, etc.).  Because both fields are filled with open vocabularies it is possible
for producers to define their own kill chains.


 


The gap analysis between using TLOs (assuming we would use the STIX 1.x model) and open vocabularies is:


 


Concept                 TLOs            open vocabs


 


URI reference                   yes             not supported


Number of phases                yes             not supported


“Phase part of” relationship    yes             implicit


Hierarchical/Circular KCs       no              no


Defining new KCs                yes             yes, via open vocabularies


Ordinality of phases            yes             not supported



 


Questions:


 


·  
Are the “not supported” concepts needed?

·  
There seems to be an assumption that doing any kind of analysis, like pivoting, can only be done with TLOs.  If this is your opinion, could you discuss your reasoning??

·  
Other thoughts?

 


Rich



 



Original Message-----
From: cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org [ mailto:cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org ] On Behalf Of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:41 PM
To: Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org >; 'Jordan, Bret' < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com >
Cc: Allan Thomson < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >; Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com >; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel) < tebedwel@cisco.com >;
cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX


 


It's a good question, and unfortunately not one that I have a clear response for.  There's pros and cons to both approaches.  CVs are obviously easier to represent and from a system perspective,
it may be better to have the kill chain phase as a property of the indicator or observation rather than as something that it links to.  On the flip-side kill chain and kill chain phase objects can provide more flexibility. 



 


I'd be interested in seeing a discussion on the approaches before providing a firm opinion.


 



Original Message-----


From: Wunder, John A. [ mailto:jwunder@mitre.org ]



Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:35 PM


To: Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI; 'Jordan, Bret'


Cc: Allan Thomson; Terry MacDonald; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel);
cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org


Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX


 


Does that mean you think we need kill chain & kill chain phase TLOs? Or do you think the controlled vocab style approach is sufficient?


 


I see the difference as with the TLOs we’re able to define and represent the kill chains themselves in STIX, while with the CV-style approach we just reference the kill chains and phase
names but don’t define them in STIX.


 


On 6/1/16, 12:30 PM, " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI "
< cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil > wrote:


 


>Just to be clear, I very much believe that we need to provide a way to communicate information related to kill chain phases, it's used in too many organizations to not include, I just
don't want to force people to use one kill chain over another.


>  


>

I fully support your statements. Bret  Sent from my Commodore 64 On Jun 6, 2016, at 3:31 PM, Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org > wrote: I would keep it as a SHOULD:   a)        That’s what we do everywhere else (controlled and open vocabularies) b)        They’re just design patterns, IMO we shouldn’t enforce design patterns.   If implementations want to do a case-insensitive pivot they can…I would see the broader problem being people name something “recon” and others use “reconnaissance”, which we can help solve with the open vocabulary. I’d see it as something that we release as a committee note after 2.0 is out. We can define some popular kill chains and what names you should use for them and their phases.   FWIW I really like this new approach. I think it’s a good balance of capability while still getting us out of the business of defining such a widely varied construct structurally.   John   From: "Jordan, Bret" < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com > Date: Friday, June 3, 2016 at 11:13 PM To: Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com > Cc: Rich Piazza < rpiazza@mitre.org >, Allan Thomson < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >, " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org " < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org >, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" < tebedwel@cisco.com >, "Wunder, John A." < jwunder@mitre.org >, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" < Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil > Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX   That is a good point, we already have this statement in the Open Vocabulary section:   SHOULD conform to the naming pattern defined for all literals contained in Section TODO: all lowercase, with dashes “-” to separate words. Is "should" sufficient... Or do we need to look at making it a "must". Personally I would  be fine with making it a must.     Thanks,   Bret       Bret Jordan CISSP Director of Security Architecture and Standards Office of the CTO Blue Coat Systems PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447  F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."    On Jun 3, 2016, at 18:46, Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com > wrote:   I'd this is the prevailing thought, then I'm fine with going down the open vocabularies path. It will mean that solutions will need to pivot 'outside' of the STIX model I.e. by creating their own nodes in their internal databases based on the common selected field values, rather than directly via the kill chain TLO id, but that's not a big problem. My only concern would be enabling the field values to match easily... In other words making them case insensitive for string matching purposes. Cheers Terry MacDonald Cosive On 4/06/2016 05:24, "Piazza, Rich" < rpiazza@mitre.org > wrote: Hi everybody,   I thought I would make some comments on kill chains to get the discussion going :-)   Starting with STIX 1.x, Kill Chains and Kill Chain Phases were basically TTPs.  The properties of each are at http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainType/ and http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainPhaseType/ .  A kill chain was defined in a STIX document, and its phases were referred to by other TLOs (Indicators).  Because there is no common repository of STIX objects (yet??), all producers would define common kill chains again and again.   It has been proposed that in STIX 2.0, we do not represent kill chains/kill chain phases using TLOs, but instead certain TLOs would have a field called “kill_chain_phases” (of type list of kill-chain-phase) to associate kill chain phases with the TLO (e.g., Attack_Pattern, Indicator?).   Here is the way the kill-chain-phase type would be specified.   Property Name Type Description kill_chain_name (required) string The name of the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in kill-chain-name-ov located in Vocabulary section. phase_name (required) string The name of the phase in the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in phase-name-ov located in Vocabulary section.   Kill-chain-name-ov and phase-name-ov will contain suggested values for well-established kill chains (LM, Mandiant, etc.).  Because both fields are filled with open vocabularies it is possible for producers to define their own kill chains.   The gap analysis between using TLOs (assuming we would use the STIX 1.x model) and open vocabularies is:   Concept                 TLOs            open vocabs   URI reference                   yes             not supported Number of phases                yes             not supported “Phase part of” relationship    yes             implicit Hierarchical/Circular KCs       no              no Defining new KCs                yes             yes, via open vocabularies Ordinality of phases            yes             not supported   Questions:   ·   Are the “not supported” concepts needed? ·   There seems to be an assumption that doing any kind of analysis, like pivoting, can only be done with TLOs.  If this is your opinion, could you discuss your reasoning?? ·   Other thoughts?   Rich  
Original Message----- From: cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org [ mailto:cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org ] On Behalf Of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:41 PM To: Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org >; 'Jordan, Bret' < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com > Cc: Allan Thomson < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >; Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com >; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel) < tebedwel@cisco.com >; cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX   It's a good question, and unfortunately not one that I have a clear response for.  There's pros and cons to both approaches.  CVs are obviously easier to represent and from a system perspective, it may be better to have the kill chain phase as a property of the indicator or observation rather than as something that it links to.  On the flip-side kill chain and kill chain phase objects can provide more flexibility.    I'd be interested in seeing a discussion on the approaches before providing a firm opinion.  
Original Message----- From: Wunder, John A. [ mailto:jwunder@mitre.org ] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:35 PM To: Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI; 'Jordan, Bret' Cc: Allan Thomson; Terry MacDonald; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel); cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX   Does that mean you think we need kill chain & kill chain phase TLOs? Or do you think the controlled vocab style approach is sufficient?   I see the difference as with the TLOs we’re able to define and represent the kill chains themselves in STIX, while with the CV-style approach we just reference the kill chains and phase names but don’t define them in STIX.   On 6/1/16, 12:30 PM, " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI " < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil > wrote:   >Just to be clear, I very much believe that we need to provide a way to communicate information related to kill chain phases, it's used in too many organizations to not include, I just don't want to force people to use one kill chain over another. >   >
Original Message----- >From: Jordan, Bret [ mailto:bret.jordan@bluecoat.com ] >Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 11:48 AM >To: Wunder, John A. >Cc: Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI; Allan Thomson; Terry MacDonald; Ted >Bedwell (tebedwel); cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org >Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX >   >I agree.  I believe using kill chains as a TLO would be overly complex.  If we need that in the future we can add it. >   >Bret >   >Sent from my Commodore 64 >   >> On Jun 1, 2016, at 6:32 AM, Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org > wrote: >> >> I agree with Gary here...organizations often create their own informal or formal kill chains, but by providing too much structure around them we in STIX can actually limit things and make it so they're not able to define them how they want. For example, Mandiant's "Attack Lifecycle" in their APT1 report has a cycle, but we weren't able to capture that in the STIX 1.2 kill chain structure, so it was only a partial definition. Hierarchies, cycles, what else would we need to add? >> >> So IMO the structures are too fluid/differentiated for us to adequately capture as TLOs and instead we should just let people define them elsewhere and provide mechanisms to reference them. >> >>> On 6/1/16, 9:17 AM, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" < Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil > wrote: >>> >>> Some context on organizations creating their own kill chain. >>> >>> There is a decent amount of adoption of the LM Kill Chain but many organizations decide to expand or provide a different variant of that concept.  Some organizations do so in order to align with their internal terminology or processes.  Others do so because they want more fidelity or have a separate usage.  For example, I am aware of one government entity that has a hierarchal kill chain with many additional steps than the LM Kill Chain.  The concept is that the analysts at the low levels  can fill in the kill chain at a high fidelity, but then multiple high fidelity steps fall into 1 step in a lower fidelity version of the kill chain.  The lower fidelity version can be used for presenting to those higher in command or for making decisions about actions to take or processes that need to be started.  In another example, the LM kill chain is focused on net-defense and starts with Reconnaissance, other organizations may be looking at an attack from a different perspective and therefore may start at a different phase. >>> >>> All of this is to say that we need to be careful that providing too much structure leads to less adoption or stops the ability for analysts to continue to innovate. >>> >>> -Gary >>> >>>

" If implementations want to do a case-insensitive pivot they can " IMO this is a dangerous path to go down. Is "Reconnaissance" the same as "reconnaissance" - this is not an implementation detail, it is something we have to declare in the standard, otherwise we will not have interoperability. We have to specify in the standard if literals inside controlled vocabularies are case-sensitive or not, because it has implications for writing high-performance code. I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all be lower-case - I am saying that we should mandate that the vocabulary is case-sensitive and compares should be done that way. - Jason Keirstead STSM, Product Architect, Security Intelligence, IBM Security Systems www.ibm.com/security www.securityintelligence.com Without data, all you are is just another person with an opinion - Unknown "Wunder, John A." ---06/06/2016 06:31:41 PM---I would keep it as a SHOULD: a) That’s what we do everywhere else (controlled and open vocabul From: "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org> To: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>, Terry MacDonald <terry.macdonald@cosive.com> Cc: "Piazza, Rich" <rpiazza@mitre.org>, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" <tebedwel@cisco.com>, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" <Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil> Date: 06/06/2016 06:31 PM Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX Sent by: <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org> I would keep it as a SHOULD: a) That’s what we do everywhere else (controlled and open vocabularies) b) They’re just design patterns, IMO we shouldn’t enforce design patterns. If implementations want to do a case-insensitive pivot they can…I would see the broader problem being people name something “recon” and others use “reconnaissance”, which we can help solve with the open vocabulary. I’d see it as something that we release as a committee note after 2.0 is out. We can define some popular kill chains and what names you should use for them and their phases. FWIW I really like this new approach. I think it’s a good balance of capability while still getting us out of the business of defining such a widely varied construct structurally. John From: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com> Date: Friday, June 3, 2016 at 11:13 PM To: Terry MacDonald <terry.macdonald@cosive.com> Cc: Rich Piazza <rpiazza@mitre.org>, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" <tebedwel@cisco.com>, "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org>, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" <Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil> Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX That is a good point, we already have this statement in the Open Vocabulary section: SHOULD conform to the naming pattern defined for all literals contained in Section TODO: all lowercase, with dashes “-” to separate words. Is "should" sufficient... Or do we need to look at making it a "must". Personally I would be fine with making it a must. Thanks, Bret Bret Jordan CISSP Director of Security Architecture and Standards Office of the CTO Blue Coat Systems PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050 "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg." On Jun 3, 2016, at 18:46, Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com > wrote: I'd this is the prevailing thought, then I'm fine with going down the open vocabularies path. It will mean that solutions will need to pivot 'outside' of the STIX model I.e. by creating their own nodes in their internal databases based on the common selected field values, rather than directly via the kill chain TLO id, but that's not a big problem. My only concern would be enabling the field values to match easily... In other words making them case insensitive for string matching purposes. Cheers Terry MacDonald Cosive On 4/06/2016 05:24, "Piazza, Rich" < rpiazza@mitre.org > wrote: Hi everybody, I thought I would make some comments on kill chains to get the discussion going :-) Starting with STIX 1.x, Kill Chains and Kill Chain Phases were basically TTPs. The properties of each are at http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainType/ and http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainPhaseType/ . A kill chain was defined in a STIX document, and its phases were referred to by other TLOs (Indicators). Because there is no common repository of STIX objects (yet??), all producers would define common kill chains again and again. It has been proposed that in STIX 2.0, we do not represent kill chains/kill chain phases using TLOs, but instead certain TLOs would have a field called “kill_chain_phases” (of type list of kill-chain-phase) to associate kill chain phases with the TLO (e.g., Attack_Pattern, Indicator?). Here is the way the kill-chain-phase type would be specified. Property Name Type Description kill_chain_name (required) string The name of the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in kill-chain-name-ov located in Vocabulary section. phase_name (required) string The name of the phase in the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in phase-name-ov located in Vocabulary section. Kill-chain-name-ov and phase-name-ov will contain suggested values for well-established kill chains (LM, Mandiant, etc.). Because both fields are filled with open vocabularies it is possible for producers to define their own kill chains. The gap analysis between using TLOs (assuming we would use the STIX 1.x model) and open vocabularies is: Concept TLOs open vocabs URI reference yes not supported Number of phases yes not supported “Phase part of” relationship yes implicit Hierarchical/Circular KCs no no Defining new KCs yes yes, via open vocabularies Ordinality of phases yes not supported Questions: · Are the “not supported” concepts needed? · There seems to be an assumption that doing any kind of analysis, like pivoting, can only be done with TLOs. If this is your opinion, could you discuss your reasoning?? · Other thoughts? Rich
Original Message----- From: cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org [ mailto:cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org ] On Behalf Of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:41 PM To: Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org >; 'Jordan, Bret' < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com > Cc: Allan Thomson < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >; Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com >; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel) < tebedwel@cisco.com >; cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX It's a good question, and unfortunately not one that I have a clear response for. There's pros and cons to both approaches. CVs are obviously easier to represent and from a system perspective, it may be better to have the kill chain phase as a property of the indicator or observation rather than as something that it links to. On the flip-side kill chain and kill chain phase objects can provide more flexibility. I'd be interested in seeing a discussion on the approaches before providing a firm opinion.
Original Message----- From: Wunder, John A. [ mailto:jwunder@mitre.org ] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:35 PM To: Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI; 'Jordan, Bret' Cc: Allan Thomson; Terry MacDonald; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel); cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX Does that mean you think we need kill chain & kill chain phase TLOs? Or do you think the controlled vocab style approach is sufficient? I see the difference as with the TLOs we’re able to define and represent the kill chains themselves in STIX, while with the CV-style approach we just reference the kill chains and phase names but don’t define them in STIX. On 6/1/16, 12:30 PM, " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI " < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil > wrote: >Just to be clear, I very much believe that we need to provide a way to communicate information related to kill chain phases, it's used in too many organizations to not include, I just don't want to force people to use one kill chain over another. > >
Original Message----- >From: Jordan, Bret [ mailto:bret.jordan@bluecoat.com ] >Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 11:48 AM >To: Wunder, John A. >Cc: Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI; Allan Thomson; Terry MacDonald; Ted >Bedwell (tebedwel); cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org >Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX > >I agree. I believe using kill chains as a TLO would be overly complex. If we need that in the future we can add it. > >Bret > >Sent from my Commodore 64 > >> On Jun 1, 2016, at 6:32 AM, Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org > wrote: >> >> I agree with Gary here...organizations often create their own informal or formal kill chains, but by providing too much structure around them we in STIX can actually limit things and make it so they're not able to define them how they want. For example, Mandiant's "Attack Lifecycle" in their APT1 report has a cycle, but we weren't able to capture that in the STIX 1.2 kill chain structure, so it was only a partial definition. Hierarchies, cycles, what else would we need to add? >> >> So IMO the structures are too fluid/differentiated for us to adequately capture as TLOs and instead we should just let people define them elsewhere and provide mechanisms to reference them. >> >>> On 6/1/16, 9:17 AM, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" < Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil > wrote: >>> >>> Some context on organizations creating their own kill chain. >>> >>> There is a decent amount of adoption of the LM Kill Chain but many organizations decide to expand or provide a different variant of that concept. Some organizations do so in order to align with their internal terminology or processes. Others do so because they want more fidelity or have a separate usage. For example, I am aware of one government entity that has a hierarchal kill chain with many additional steps than the LM Kill Chain. The concept is that the analysts at the low levels can fill in the kill chain at a high fidelity, but then multiple high fidelity steps fall into 1 step in a lower fidelity version of the kill chain. The lower fidelity version can be used for presenting to those higher in command or for making decisions about actions to take or processes that need to be started. In another example, the LM kill chain is focused on net-defense and starts with Reconnaissance, other organizations may be looking at an attack from a different perspective and therefore may start at a different phase. >>> >>> All of this is to say that we need to be careful that providing too much structure leads to less adoption or stops the ability for analysts to continue to innovate. >>> >>> -Gary >>> >>>

I agree that we should consider vocabularies as case-sensitive from a spec perspective. I don’t even think we have to specify it, they’re different characters so unless we say it’s insensitive
and define how that works then they’re just different characters. I just don’t think we should limit what tools can do with fields that just contain information (like `kill-chains`) and don’t have any spec-defined behavior. If some tools want to do matching
and pivoting as if they were case-insensitive, I don’t think we can or should stop them.
 
That said that’s only case sensitivity, the solution to me for the problem Terry noted is specifying our vocabulary for common kill chains, where we get to define it so we can follow our
own naming and design rules and make it all lower case.
 
John
 

From:
Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 8:04 AM
To: "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org>
Cc: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>, Terry MacDonald <terry.macdonald@cosive.com>, Rich Piazza <rpiazza@mitre.org>, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Ted Bedwell
(tebedwel)" <tebedwel@cisco.com>, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" <Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil>
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX


 



" If implementations want to do a case-insensitive pivot they can "

IMO this is a dangerous path to go down. Is "Reconnaissance" the same as "reconnaissance" - this is not an implementation detail, it is something we have to declare in the standard, otherwise we will not have interoperability.

We have to specify in the standard if literals inside controlled vocabularies are case-sensitive or not, because it has implications for writing high-performance code.


I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all be lower-case - I am saying that we
should mandate that the vocabulary is case-sensitive and compares should be done that way.

-
Jason Keirstead
STSM, Product Architect, Security Intelligence, IBM Security Systems
www.ibm.com/security www.securityintelligence.com

Without data, all you are is just another person with an opinion - Unknown


"Wunder, John A." ---06/06/2016 06:31:41 PM---I would keep it
as a SHOULD: a) That’s what we do everywhere else (controlled and open vocabul

From: "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org>
To: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>, Terry MacDonald <terry.macdonald@cosive.com>
Cc: "Piazza, Rich" <rpiazza@mitre.org>, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)"
<tebedwel@cisco.com>, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" <Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil>
Date: 06/06/2016 06:31 PM
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX
Sent by: <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>






I would keep it as a SHOULD:
a) That’s what we do everywhere else (controlled and open vocabularies)
b) They’re just design patterns, IMO we shouldn’t enforce design patterns.

If implementations want to do a case-insensitive pivot they can…I would see the broader problem being people name something “recon” and others use “reconnaissance”, which we can help solve with the open vocabulary. I’d see
it as something that we release as a committee note after 2.0 is out. We can define some popular kill chains and what names you should use for them and their phases.

FWIW I really like this new approach. I think it’s a good balance of capability while still getting us out of the business of defining such a widely varied construct structurally.

John

From: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>
Date: Friday, June 3, 2016 at 11:13 PM
To: Terry MacDonald <terry.macdonald@cosive.com>
Cc: Rich Piazza <rpiazza@mitre.org>, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" <tebedwel@cisco.com>, "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org>, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI"
<Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil>
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX

That is a good point, we already have this statement in the Open Vocabulary section:

SHOULD conform to the naming pattern defined for all literals contained in Section TODO: all lowercase, with dashes “-” to separate words.


Is "should" sufficient... Or do we need to look at making it a "must". Personally I would be fine with making it a must.


Thanks,

Bret



Bret Jordan CISSP
Director of Security Architecture and Standards Office of the CTO
Blue Coat Systems
PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050
"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."

On Jun 3, 2016, at 18:46, Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com >
wrote:

I'd this is the prevailing thought, then I'm fine with going down the open vocabularies path. It will mean that solutions will need to pivot 'outside' of the STIX model I.e. by creating their own nodes in their internal databases
based on the common selected field values, rather than directly via the kill chain TLO id, but that's not a big problem.
My only concern would be enabling the field values to match easily... In other words making them case insensitive for string matching purposes.
Cheers
Terry MacDonald
Cosive
On 4/06/2016 05:24, "Piazza, Rich" < rpiazza@mitre.org > wrote:
Hi everybody,

I thought I would make some comments on kill chains to get the discussion going :-)

Starting with STIX 1.x, Kill Chains and Kill Chain Phases were basically TTPs. The properties of each are at
http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainType/
and http://stixproject.github.io/data-model/1.2/stixCommon/KillChainPhaseType/ .
A kill chain was defined in a STIX document, and its phases were referred to by other TLOs (Indicators). Because there is no common repository of STIX objects (yet??), all producers would define common kill chains again and again.

It has been proposed that in STIX 2.0, we do not represent kill chains/kill chain phases using TLOs, but instead certain TLOs would have a field called “kill_chain_phases” (of type list of kill-chain-phase) to associate kill
chain phases with the TLO (e.g., Attack_Pattern, Indicator?).

Here is the way the kill-chain-phase type would be specified.




Property Name


Type


Description




kill_chain_name (required)


string


The name of the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in
kill-chain-name-ov located in Vocabulary section.




phase_name (required)


string


The name of the phase in the kill chain. The suggested values for this field are in
phase-name-ov located in Vocabulary section.






Kill-chain-name-ov and phase-name-ov will contain suggested values for well-established kill chains (LM, Mandiant, etc.). Because both fields are filled with open vocabularies it is possible for producers to define their own
kill chains.

The gap analysis between using TLOs (assuming we would use the STIX 1.x model) and open vocabularies is:

Concept TLOs open vocabs

URI reference yes not supported
Number of phases yes not supported
“Phase part of” relationship yes implicit
Hierarchical/Circular KCs no no
Defining new KCs yes yes, via open vocabularies
Ordinality of phases yes not supported

Questions:

· Are the “not supported” concepts needed?
· There seems to be an assumption that doing any kind of analysis, like pivoting, can only be done with TLOs. If this is your opinion, could you discuss your reasoning??
· Other thoughts?

Rich


Original Message-----
From: cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org [ mailto:cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org ]
On Behalf Of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:41 PM
To: Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org >; 'Jordan, Bret' < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com >
Cc: Allan Thomson < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >; Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com >;
Ted Bedwell (tebedwel) < tebedwel@cisco.com >;
cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX

It's a good question, and unfortunately not one that I have a clear response for. There's pros and cons to both approaches. CVs are obviously easier to represent and from a system perspective, it may be better to have the kill
chain phase as a property of the indicator or observation rather than as something that it links to. On the flip-side kill chain and kill chain phase objects can provide more flexibility.


I'd be interested in seeing a discussion on the approaches before providing a firm opinion.


Original Message-----
From: Wunder, John A. [ mailto:jwunder@mitre.org ]

Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 12:35 PM
To: Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI; 'Jordan, Bret'
Cc: Allan Thomson; Terry MacDonald; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel);
cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX

Does that mean you think we need kill chain & kill chain phase TLOs? Or do you think the controlled vocab style approach is sufficient?

I see the difference as with the TLOs we’re able to define and represent the kill chains themselves in STIX, while with the CV-style approach we just reference the kill chains and phase names but don’t define them in STIX.


On 6/1/16, 12:30 PM, " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI "
< cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil > wrote:

>Just to be clear, I very much believe that we need to provide a way to communicate information related to kill chain phases, it's used in too many organizations to not include, I just don't want to force people to use one
kill chain over another.
>
>
Original Message-----
>From: Jordan, Bret [ mailto:bret.jordan@bluecoat.com ]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 11:48 AM
>To: Wunder, John A.
>Cc: Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI; Allan Thomson; Terry MacDonald; Ted

>Bedwell (tebedwel); cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX
>
>I agree. I believe using kill chains as a TLO would be overly complex. If we need that in the future we can add it.

>
>Bret
>
>Sent from my Commodore 64
>
>> On Jun 1, 2016, at 6:32 AM, Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org > wrote:
>>
>> I agree with Gary here...organizations often create their own informal or formal kill chains, but by providing too much structure around them we in STIX can actually limit things and make it so they're not able to define
them how they want. For example, Mandiant's "Attack Lifecycle" in their APT1 report has a cycle, but we weren't able to capture that in the STIX 1.2 kill chain structure, so it was only a partial definition. Hierarchies, cycles, what else would we need to
add?
>>
>> So IMO the structures are too fluid/differentiated for us to adequately capture as TLOs and instead we should just let people define them elsewhere and provide mechanisms to reference them.
>>
>>> On 6/1/16, 9:17 AM, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" < Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil > wrote:
>>>
>>> Some context on organizations creating their own kill chain.

>>>
>>> There is a decent amount of adoption of the LM Kill Chain but many organizations decide to expand or provide a different variant of that concept. Some organizations do so in order to align with their internal terminology
or processes. Others do so because they want more fidelity or have a separate usage. For example, I am aware of one government entity that has a hierarchal kill chain with many additional steps than the LM Kill Chain. The concept is that the analysts at the
low levels can fill in the kill chain at a high fidelity, but then multiple high fidelity steps fall into 1 step in a lower fidelity version of the kill chain. The lower fidelity version can be used for presenting to those higher in command or for making decisions
about actions to take or processes that need to be started. In another example, the LM kill chain is focused on net-defense and starts with Reconnaissance, other organizations may be looking at an attack from a different perspective and therefore may start
at a different phase.
>>>
>>> All of this is to say that we need to be careful that providing too much structure leads to less adoption or stops the ability for analysts to continue to innovate.
>>>
>>> -Gary
>>>
>>>
Original Message-----
>>> From: cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org

>>> [ mailto:cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org ] On Behalf Of Allan Thomson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 9:08 AM
>>> To: Terry MacDonald; Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)
>>> Cc: Wunder, John A.; Jordan, Bret; cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX
>>>
>>> Terry - if common kill-chain is/was likely then why did organizations create their own versions? I don't know the reasons for organizations creating their own but if one was enough then would they not have just adopted
it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think STIX charter should focus on its original intent/charter and if the community wants a central registry of the objects you list below then that becomes a separate goal/charter item for another group.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't believe STIX should burden itself with trying to standardize a kill-chain definition especially considering not all kill-chain definition authors are even involved in this community. So whatever would be standardized
would likely not reflect the input of those authors.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> allan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Terry MacDonald < terry.macdonald@cosive.com >
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 3:32 AM
>>> To: "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" < tebedwel@cisco.com >
>>> Cc: "Wunder, John" < jwunder@mitre.org >, Allan Thomson

>>> < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >, "Jordan, Bret"

>>> < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com >, " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org "

>>> < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org >
>>> Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm of the opinion that we should do Option 1. My reasoning is that it makes it easy for new people to add in additional kill chains and classification systems as they wish. I envisage Lockheed Martin providing a 'dictionary'
series of killchain objects and killchain-phase objects to the public for others to use. These would be either downloadable off the Lockheed Martin TAXII server, or hosted at an OASIS registry TAXII Server, and would be automatically downloaded by STIX implementations
(via their respective update mechanisms) to ensure that representations have the same object IDs that they all share.

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Threatconnect/ ActiveResponse.org could do the same with the diamond model, Gartner could do the
same for their model, and we all would then be using the same objects, and bringing all the benefits that brings with graph based analysis.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am coming around to the idea of us needing a central registry of common objects for a multitude of reasons, and that central registry makes it easier to implement Option 1. The entral registry of common objects would
allow:
>>>
>>> * Controlled Vocabularies to be specified
>>> * Attack Pattern Objects to be created for each CAPEC entry so we can pivot from common object IDs
>>> * Allow for a common Vulnerability objects to be created for each CVE number that's issued
>>> * Allow for common Kill chain and Kill chain phase objects to be shared across platforms
>>>
>>> and probably others I haven't thought of. I'm thinking its an idea we might need to entertain.....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry MacDonald Chief Product Officer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> M: +61-407-203-026 < tel:+61-407-203-026 >
>>>
>>> E: terry.macdonald@cosive.com < mailto:terry.macdonald@cosive.com >
>>>
>>> W: www.cosive.com < https://www.cosive.com/ >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Ted Bedwell (tebedwel) < tebedwel@cisco.com > wrote:
>>>
>>> I think this approach is flexible enough to address the concerns of "Which kill chain do you mean?" while clearly articulating how to annotate the kill chain phases. If we don't have some mechanism then we will see vendors
being forced to define extensions to handle it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> $0.02
>>>
>>> ~ted
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org > on behalf of "Wunder, John A." < jwunder@mitre.org >
>>> Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 9:49 AM
>>> To: Allan Thomson < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >, "Jordan,

>>> Bret" < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com >
>>>
>>>
>>> Cc: " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org " < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org >
>>> Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey Allan,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree w/ you that we can't standardize on a single kill chain. The idea behind the open vocabulary would be to let people use whichever kill chain they want to use, or multiple kill chains. For example, you could do something
like this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>> "type": "bundle",
>>>
>>> "indicators": [
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>> "type": "indicator",
>>>
>>> "id":
>>> "indicator--8445a039-6ba6-4e42-9011-467093d5b29e",
>>>
>>> "spec_version": "2.0",
>>>
>>> "created_time": "2016-05-27T15:47:14Z",
>>>
>>> "modified_time": "2016-05-27T15:47:14Z",
>>>
>>> "created_by_ref":
>>> "identity--f431f809-377b-45e0-aa1c-6a4751cae5ff",
>>>
>>> "revision": 1,
>>>
>>> "title": "Downloader URLs",
>>>
>>> "labels": ["malicious-activity"],
>>>
>>> "pattern": "url.value =
>>> ' http://example.com/download.exe '",
>>>
>>> "kill_chain_phases": [
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>> "kill_chain_name":
>>> "lockheed-martin-cyber-kill-chain",
>>>
>>> "phase_name": "delivery"
>>>
>>> },
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>> "kill_chain_name":
>>> "mandiant-cyber-attack-lifecycle",
>>>
>>> "phase_name": "initial-compromise"
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>> ]
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>> ]
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So I definitely agree that while it would be great for us all to agree on a single kill chain to use it seems unrealistic. At the same time, people using the LMCO kill chain, the Mandiant kill chain, or the Gartner kill
chain (or communities using a different one) should be able to use STIX to standardize on their use of it. So, to me, it seems like a good use case for an open vocab. We could help ensure standardization by extending our open vocab concept to have vocabs for
common kill chains defined across the kill_chain_name and phase_name fields.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In terms of machine usage, I see it most often used for categorization and prioritization of other intelligence (indicators, malware, attack patterns, etc). Basically just a way of binning things...for example, MITRE uses
it to categorize attack patterns in ATT&CK ( https://attack.mitre.org/wiki/Main_Page ).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Allan Thomson < athomson@lookingglasscyber.com >
>>> Date: Friday, May 27, 2016 at 4:27 PM
>>> To: "Jordan, Bret" < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com >, "Wunder, John A." < jwunder@mitre.org >
>>> Cc: " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org " < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org >
>>> Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Option 3 followed by Option 2.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The reason for preferring Option 3 is that there are multiple kill chains out there and which one is used by STIX will likely not be standardized. So if we choose a controlled vocab then which kill chain definition are
you going to use? Gartner? Lockheed-Martin?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My preference is to not burden MVP with this issue and consider it a future issue. If folks need kill-chain then I would suggest what does a machine or a human do with this information where other TLOs already provide sufficient
information to consider mitigation approaches.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That said, if someone can argue a compelling machine-to-machine reason to include kill chain information then I would prefer it to be a vocab not objects.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So definitely not Option 1.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Allan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org " < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org >
on behalf of "Jordan, Bret" < bret.jordan@bluecoat.com >
>>> Date: Friday, May 27, 2016 at 9:41 AM
>>> To: "Wunder, John" < jwunder@mitre.org >
>>> Cc: " cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org " < cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org >
>>> Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From your great examples, Option 1 represents a lot of bloat and will enable multiple people to define the same thing. I would be in favor of Option 2.

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bret
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bret Jordan CISSP
>>>
>>> Director of Security Architecture and Standards Office of

>>> the CTO
>>>
>>> Blue Coat Systems
>>>
>>> PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE

>>> 7415 0050
>>>
>>> "Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 27, 2016, at 10:01, Wunder, John A. < jwunder@mitre.org > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One of the topics that has come up in the TTP/Malware conversation is kill chains. As a reminder, cyber kill chains are a phase-based model for describing the stages of an attack. A good example is the Lockheed Martin kill
chain.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In STIX 1.2, kill chains were represented as kind of a half-TLO: they were a part of TTP (defined either on a TTP object or in the TTPs list), but did have their own IDs and could be referenced from other places.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In STIX 2.0, we have a couple options:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Kill chains and kill chain phases could become top-level objects. You would use relationships to relate analysis objects (indicators, malware, attack patterns, etc.) to the kill chain phase objects that they can be considered
a part of. References to kill chains would require either either everyone knowing the IDs for the STIX objects or re-sharing kill chain definitions. In this option, STIX supports the structured representation of kill chains themselves.
>>>
>>> 2. Kill chain phases are represented as a controlled vocabulary approach. Each object that needs to have kill chains just includes a field where you can list the kill chain phases that it's a part of. References to kill
chains wouldn't use STIX IDs, they would use names, so we could use something like open vocabularies to make sure people use the same terms for common kill chains/phases. In this option, STIX only supports representing names for kill chains...not full structured
representations of the kill chains themselves.
>>>
>>> 3. We don't do kill chains, either for MVP or at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My preference is for #2. It's very easy to implement so will encourage people to use kill chains (when necessary), and via the use of open vocabularies and standardized terms we still enable pivoting and tracking across
orgs/tools. It also seems like something that's very useful for analysis and well-understood so we can be OK to add it for MVP.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I mocked up some examples for options #1 and #2 here:

>>> https://gist.github.com/johnwunder/80f66746cc42134e6a42c98df6cdf18f

>>> < https://gist.github.com/johnwunder/80f66746cc42134e6a42c98df6cdf18f
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that

>generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at:
> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php
>

Jason Keirstead wrote this message on Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:04 -0300: > I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are > case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note > that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all > be lower-case - I am saying that we should mandate that the vocabulary is > case-sensitive and compares should be done that way. I agree... Trying to do case insensitive compares intorduces complexities that case sensitive does not.. Simple ==/strcmp for most uses... -- John-Mark

I think we are discussing trade-offs that impact products creating or using STIX. I personally much prefer lower case for all terms but that’s not the point of deciding case sensitive or not. I think you should also consider the users of our products in this. A user will not know which case the STIX spec defined the terms in and products that expose these terms in their UI will have to support case insensitive searching/use. Users will just type what they think the term is without regard to uppercase, lowercase, camel-case ….etc. By making terms case sensitive in the protocol exchange you are forcing products to know what the exact case was used in the spec, and then products will have to know how to map from what users do to the underlying protocol uses. For me, not having to care about case sensitivity if a user enters a term of an open vocab in all CAPS when the spec was defined in lowercase then that would be a good thing. I also think for open vocabs products will have to support the option to extend the vocab and therefore unless you are careful you could end up with multiple versions of the same term just because the user’s entered the term using different cases. For example, all of the following are clearly the same term: THREAT-BLAH Threat-Blah threat-blah threat-Blah threat-BLAH ….etc. Allan On 6/7/16, 4:53 PM, "John-Mark Gurney" <jmg@newcontext.com> wrote: >Jason Keirstead wrote this message on Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:04 -0300: >> I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are >> case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note >> that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all >> be lower-case - I am saying that we should mandate that the vocabulary is >> case-sensitive and compares should be done that way. > >I agree... Trying to do case insensitive compares intorduces complexities >that case sensitive does not.. Simple ==/strcmp for most uses... > >-- >John-Mark

I would greatly prefer that all vocabs are case sensitive and that they MUST be lower-case. That makes it very simple all the way around. Bret Sent from my Commodore 64 > On Jun 8, 2016, at 1:41 AM, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com> wrote: > > I think we are discussing trade-offs that impact products creating or using STIX. > > I personally much prefer lower case for all terms but that’s not the point of deciding case sensitive or not. > > I think you should also consider the users of our products in this. > > A user will not know which case the STIX spec defined the terms in and products that expose these terms in their UI will have to support case insensitive searching/use. > > Users will just type what they think the term is without regard to uppercase, lowercase, camel-case ….etc. > > By making terms case sensitive in the protocol exchange you are forcing products to know what the exact case was used in the spec, and then products will have to know how to map from what users do to the underlying protocol uses. > > For me, not having to care about case sensitivity if a user enters a term of an open vocab in all CAPS when the spec was defined in lowercase then that would be a good thing. > > I also think for open vocabs products will have to support the option to extend the vocab and therefore unless you are careful you could end up with multiple versions of the same term just because the user’s entered the term using different cases. > > For example, all of the following are clearly the same term: > > THREAT-BLAH > Threat-Blah > threat-blah > threat-Blah > threat-BLAH > > ….etc. > > Allan > >> On 6/7/16, 4:53 PM, "John-Mark Gurney" <jmg@newcontext.com> wrote: >> >> Jason Keirstead wrote this message on Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:04 -0300: >>> I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are >>> case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note >>> that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all >>> be lower-case - I am saying that we should mandate that the vocabulary is >>> case-sensitive and compares should be done that way. >> >> I agree... Trying to do case insensitive compares intorduces complexities >> that case sensitive does not.. Simple ==/strcmp for most uses... >> >> -- >> John-Mark >

Agreed. A product could just store the .lower() of whatever the user entered, and optionally keep around a case-sensitive display name if needed. What is displayed to the user and stored in the product’s database is an implementation and/or process detail. What is exchanged over the wire is what will drive interoperability. I think the more concretely we can specify what is exchanged, the easier interoperability will be. Thank you. -Mark On 6/8/16, 1:31 AM, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Jordan, Bret" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of bret.jordan@bluecoat.com> wrote: >I would greatly prefer that all vocabs are case sensitive and that they MUST be lower-case. That makes it very simple all the way around. > >Bret > >Sent from my Commodore 64 > >> On Jun 8, 2016, at 1:41 AM, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com> wrote: >> >> I think we are discussing trade-offs that impact products creating or using STIX. >> >> I personally much prefer lower case for all terms but that’s not the point of deciding case sensitive or not. >> >> I think you should also consider the users of our products in this. >> >> A user will not know which case the STIX spec defined the terms in and products that expose these terms in their UI will have to support case insensitive searching/use. >> >> Users will just type what they think the term is without regard to uppercase, lowercase, camel-case ….etc. >> >> By making terms case sensitive in the protocol exchange you are forcing products to know what the exact case was used in the spec, and then products will have to know how to map from what users do to the underlying protocol uses. >> >> For me, not having to care about case sensitivity if a user enters a term of an open vocab in all CAPS when the spec was defined in lowercase then that would be a good thing. >> >> I also think for open vocabs products will have to support the option to extend the vocab and therefore unless you are careful you could end up with multiple versions of the same term just because the user’s entered the term using different cases. >> >> For example, all of the following are clearly the same term: >> >> THREAT-BLAH >> Threat-Blah >> threat-blah >> threat-Blah >> threat-BLAH >> >> ….etc. >> >> Allan >> >>> On 6/7/16, 4:53 PM, "John-Mark Gurney" <jmg@newcontext.com> wrote: >>> >>> Jason Keirstead wrote this message on Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:04 -0300: >>>> I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are >>>> case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note >>>> that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all >>>> be lower-case - I am saying that we should mandate that the vocabulary is >>>> case-sensitive and compares should be done that way. >>> >>> I agree... Trying to do case insensitive compares intorduces complexities >>> that case sensitive does not.. Simple ==/strcmp for most uses... >>> >>> -- >>> John-Mark >> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: > https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >

I had this discussion today, and some times I think people believe that STIX is a product. It is not. STIX is there to make sure two products developed by two different groups can share threat intelligence. For this specific example I think everything over the wire should be lower-case for these properties. There is no need for anything else. If a product wants to display it in camel case they can. Bret Sent from my Commodore 64 > On Jun 8, 2016, at 2:14 PM, Mark Davidson <mdavidson@soltra.com> wrote: > > Agreed. A product could just store the .lower() of whatever the user entered, and optionally keep around a case-sensitive display name if needed. What is displayed to the user and stored in the product’s database is an implementation and/or process detail. What is exchanged over the wire is what will drive interoperability. > > I think the more concretely we can specify what is exchanged, the easier interoperability will be. > > Thank you. > -Mark > >> On 6/8/16, 1:31 AM, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Jordan, Bret" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of bret.jordan@bluecoat.com> wrote: >> >> I would greatly prefer that all vocabs are case sensitive and that they MUST be lower-case. That makes it very simple all the way around. >> >> Bret >> >> Sent from my Commodore 64 >> >>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 1:41 AM, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com> wrote: >>> >>> I think we are discussing trade-offs that impact products creating or using STIX. >>> >>> I personally much prefer lower case for all terms but that’s not the point of deciding case sensitive or not. >>> >>> I think you should also consider the users of our products in this. >>> >>> A user will not know which case the STIX spec defined the terms in and products that expose these terms in their UI will have to support case insensitive searching/use. >>> >>> Users will just type what they think the term is without regard to uppercase, lowercase, camel-case ….etc. >>> >>> By making terms case sensitive in the protocol exchange you are forcing products to know what the exact case was used in the spec, and then products will have to know how to map from what users do to the underlying protocol uses. >>> >>> For me, not having to care about case sensitivity if a user enters a term of an open vocab in all CAPS when the spec was defined in lowercase then that would be a good thing. >>> >>> I also think for open vocabs products will have to support the option to extend the vocab and therefore unless you are careful you could end up with multiple versions of the same term just because the user’s entered the term using different cases. >>> >>> For example, all of the following are clearly the same term: >>> >>> THREAT-BLAH >>> Threat-Blah >>> threat-blah >>> threat-Blah >>> threat-BLAH >>> >>> ….etc. >>> >>> Allan >>> >>>> On 6/7/16, 4:53 PM, "John-Mark Gurney" <jmg@newcontext.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Jason Keirstead wrote this message on Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:04 -0300: >>>>> I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are >>>>> case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note >>>>> that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all >>>>> be lower-case - I am saying that we should mandate that the vocabulary is >>>>> case-sensitive and compares should be done that way. >>>> >>>> I agree... Trying to do case insensitive compares intorduces complexities >>>> that case sensitive does not.. Simple ==/strcmp for most uses... >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John-Mark >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >

I highly encourage everyone to read the link I just sent on Turkish on why "lower case everything" is not a panacea to compare strings. It actually does not help.. it makes problems worse. - Jason Keirstead STSM, Product Architect, Security Intelligence, IBM Security Systems www.ibm.com/security www.securityintelligence.com Without data, all you are is just another person with an opinion - Unknown "Jordan, Bret" ---06/08/2016 03:41:47 PM---I had this discussion today, and some times I think people believe that STIX is a product. It is no From: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com> To: Mark Davidson <mdavidson@soltra.com> Cc: Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, John-Mark Gurney <jmg@newcontext.com>, Jason Keirstead/CanEast/IBM@IBMCA, "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org>, Terry MacDonald <terry.macdonald@cosive.com>, "Piazza, Rich" <rpiazza@mitre.org>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" <tebedwel@cisco.com>, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" <Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil> Date: 06/08/2016 03:41 PM Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX I had this discussion today, and some times I think people believe that STIX is a product.  It is not.  STIX is there to make sure two products developed by two different groups can share threat intelligence.   For this specific example I think everything over the wire should be lower-case for these properties.  There is no need for anything else.  If a product wants to display it in camel case they can.   Bret Sent from my Commodore 64 > On Jun 8, 2016, at 2:14 PM, Mark Davidson <mdavidson@soltra.com> wrote: > > Agreed. A product could just store the .lower() of whatever the user entered, and optionally keep around a case-sensitive display name if needed. What is displayed to the user and stored in the product’s database is an implementation and/or process detail. What is exchanged over the wire is what will drive interoperability. > > I think the more concretely we can specify what is exchanged, the easier interoperability will be. > > Thank you. > -Mark > >> On 6/8/16, 1:31 AM, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Jordan, Bret" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of bret.jordan@bluecoat.com> wrote: >> >> I would greatly prefer that all vocabs are case sensitive and that they MUST be lower-case.  That makes it very simple all the way around.   >> >> Bret >> >> Sent from my Commodore 64 >> >>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 1:41 AM, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com> wrote: >>> >>> I think we are discussing trade-offs that impact products creating or using STIX. >>> >>> I personally much prefer lower case for all terms but that’s not the point of deciding case sensitive or not. >>> >>> I think you should also consider the users of our products in this. >>> >>> A user will not know which case the STIX spec defined the terms in and products that expose these terms in their UI will have to support case insensitive searching/use. >>> >>> Users will just type what they think the term is without regard to uppercase, lowercase, camel-case ….etc. >>> >>> By making terms case sensitive in the protocol exchange you are forcing products to know what the exact case was used in the spec, and then products will have to know how to map from what users do to the underlying protocol uses. >>> >>> For me, not having to care about case sensitivity if a user enters a term of an open vocab in all CAPS when the spec was defined in lowercase then that would be a good thing. >>> >>> I also think for open vocabs products will have to support the option to extend the vocab and therefore unless you are careful you could end up with multiple versions of the same term just because the user’s entered the term using different cases. >>> >>> For example, all of the following are clearly the same term: >>> >>> THREAT-BLAH >>> Threat-Blah >>> threat-blah >>> threat-Blah >>> threat-BLAH >>> >>> ….etc. >>> >>> Allan >>> >>>> On 6/7/16, 4:53 PM, "John-Mark Gurney" <jmg@newcontext.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Jason Keirstead wrote this message on Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:04 -0300: >>>>> I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are >>>>> case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note >>>>> that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all >>>>> be lower-case - I am saying that we should mandate that the vocabulary is >>>>> case-sensitive and compares should be done that way. >>>> >>>> I agree...  Trying to do case insensitive compares intorduces complexities >>>> that case sensitive does not..  Simple ==/strcmp for most uses... >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John-Mark >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >> generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >

I suggest we discuss this topic in person or on a conference call.


There are too many divergent views to reach consensus over an email thread.
 
allan
 

From:
Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 11:52 AM
To: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>
Cc: Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil" <Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil>, Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>, John-Mark Gurney <jmg@newcontext.com>,
"Wunder, John" <jwunder@mitre.org>, Mark Davidson <mdavidson@soltra.com>, "Piazza, Rich" <rpiazza@mitre.org>, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" <tebedwel@cisco.com>, Terry MacDonald <terry.macdonald@cosive.com>
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX


 



I highly encourage everyone to read the link I just sent on Turkish on why "lower case everything" is not a panacea to compare strings. It actually does not help.. it makes problems worse.

-
Jason Keirstead
STSM, Product Architect, Security Intelligence, IBM Security Systems
www.ibm.com/security www.securityintelligence.com

Without data, all you are is just another person with an opinion - Unknown


"Jordan, Bret" ---06/08/2016 03:41:47 PM---I had this discussion
today, and some times I think people believe that STIX is a product. It is no

From: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>
To: Mark Davidson <mdavidson@soltra.com>
Cc: Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>, John-Mark Gurney <jmg@newcontext.com>, Jason Keirstead/CanEast/IBM@IBMCA, "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org>, Terry MacDonald
<terry.macdonald@cosive.com>, "Piazza, Rich" <rpiazza@mitre.org>, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Ted Bedwell (tebedwel)" <tebedwel@cisco.com>, "Katz, Gary CTR DC3/DCCI" <Gary.Katz.ctr@dc3.mil>
Date: 06/08/2016 03:41 PM
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Kill Chains in STIX






I had this discussion today, and some times I think people believe that STIX is a product.  It is not.  STIX is there to make sure two products developed by two different groups can share threat intelligence.  

For this specific example I think everything over the wire should be lower-case for these properties.  There is no need for anything else.  If a product wants to display it in camel case they can.  

Bret

Sent from my Commodore 64

> On Jun 8, 2016, at 2:14 PM, Mark Davidson <mdavidson@soltra.com> wrote:
>
> Agreed. A product could just store the .lower() of whatever the user entered, and optionally keep around a case-sensitive display name if needed. What is displayed to the user and stored in the product’s database is an implementation and/or process detail.
What is exchanged over the wire is what will drive interoperability.
>
> I think the more concretely we can specify what is exchanged, the easier interoperability will be.
>
> Thank you.
> -Mark
>
>> On 6/8/16, 1:31 AM, "cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of Jordan, Bret" <cti-stix@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of bret.jordan@bluecoat.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would greatly prefer that all vocabs are case sensitive and that they MUST be lower-case.  That makes it very simple all the way around.  
>>
>> Bret
>>
>> Sent from my Commodore 64
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 1:41 AM, Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think we are discussing trade-offs that impact products creating or using STIX.
>>>
>>> I personally much prefer lower case for all terms but that’s not the point of deciding case sensitive or not.
>>>
>>> I think you should also consider the users of our products in this.
>>>
>>> A user will not know which case the STIX spec defined the terms in and products that expose these terms in their UI will have to support case insensitive searching/use.
>>>
>>> Users will just type what they think the term is without regard to uppercase, lowercase, camel-case ….etc.
>>>
>>> By making terms case sensitive in the protocol exchange you are forcing products to know what the exact case was used in the spec, and then products will have to know how to map from what users do to the underlying protocol uses.
>>>
>>> For me, not having to care about case sensitivity if a user enters a term of an open vocab in all CAPS when the spec was defined in lowercase then that would be a good thing.
>>>
>>> I also think for open vocabs products will have to support the option to extend the vocab and therefore unless you are careful you could end up with multiple versions of the same term just because the user’s entered the term using different cases.
>>>
>>> For example, all of the following are clearly the same term:
>>>
>>> THREAT-BLAH
>>> Threat-Blah
>>> threat-blah
>>> threat-Blah
>>> threat-BLAH
>>>
>>> ….etc.
>>>
>>> Allan
>>>
>>>> On 6/7/16, 4:53 PM, "John-Mark Gurney" <jmg@newcontext.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jason Keirstead wrote this message on Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 09:04 -0300:
>>>>> I would vastly prefer that the standard declares that vocabularies are
>>>>> case-sensitive. If vocabularies are case-insensitive it is a headache. Note
>>>>> that I am *not* saying that I think that we should mandate that entries all
>>>>> be lower-case - I am saying that we should mandate that the vocabulary is
>>>>> case-sensitive and compares should be done that way.
>>>>
>>>> I agree...  Trying to do case insensitive compares intorduces complexities
>>>> that case sensitive does not..  Simple ==/strcmp for most uses...
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John-Mark
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that

>> generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at:
>>
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php
>