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To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

  • 1.  To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

    Posted 05-14-2007 13:42
    Several years ago, you were talking about getting "Simpler XHTML output"
    (initiating thread can be found at
    http://www.cygwin.com/ml/docbook-apps/2005-q2/msg00230.html).
    The whole discussion broached in accessibility and CSS layout, instead
    of tables layout. It seems you started a new project: to make a brand
    new forked XHTML XSL.
    What is the current step of this project? Is it still undergoing or as
    it been abandoned? For many reasons, I am very interested in getting
    semantical, CSS styled XHTML output.
    Thanks.

    Nicolas R.



  • 2.  Re: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

    Posted 05-14-2007 13:48
    Nicolas RAINARD wrote:
    > Several years ago, you were talking about getting "Simpler XHTML output"
    > (initiating thread can be found at
    > http://www.cygwin.com/ml/docbook-apps/2005-q2/msg00230.html).
    > The whole discussion broached in accessibility and CSS layout, instead
    > of tables layout.
    Bob may correct me, but AFAIK docbook doesn't use table based layout
    and any CSS additions are the authors, not a part of the standard
    docbook formatting, though provision is made for CSS usage.


    It seems you started a new project: to make a brand
    > new forked XHTML XSL.
    > What is the current step of this project? Is it still undergoing or as
    > it been abandoned? For many reasons, I am very interested in getting
    > semantical, CSS styled XHTML output.

    So are many of us, which is why we choose docbook!


    regards

    --
    Dave Pawson
    XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
    http://www.dpawson.co.uk



  • 3.  Re: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

    Posted 05-15-2007 06:24


    Dave Pawson wrote:
    > Nicolas RAINARD wrote:
    >> Several years ago, you were talking about getting "Simpler XHTML
    >> output" (initiating thread can be found at
    >> http://www.cygwin.com/ml/docbook-apps/2005-q2/msg00230.html).
    >> The whole discussion broached in accessibility and CSS layout,
    >> instead of tables layout.
    > Bob may correct me, but AFAIK docbook doesn't use table based layout
    > and any CSS additions are the authors, not a part of the standard
    > docbook formatting, though provision is made for CSS usage.


    I don't know how it goes for general layout, but I am absolutely sure a
    table layout is used for QandAset (what I wanted for my first DocBook).
    This is why I spent a whole day to search how I could resolve this. I
    used the 5.0 XSLT and it seems it processes pretty much as the 4.x do. I
    had a glimpse in the XSLT2 snapshot, and I didn't find a XHTML output in
    this release. Maybe is it still automatically generated from the HTML
    one? I am not sure it is the best way, for transitional HTML and strict
    XHTML have few things in common.

    Moreover, the QandAset is rendered with definition lists (
    )
    instead of ordered lists (
      ), which makes me puzzled...



      >> It seems you started a new project: to make a brand new forked XHTML
      >> XSL.
      >> What is the current step of this project? Is it still undergoing or
      >> as it been abandoned? For many reasons, I am very interested in
      >> getting semantical, CSS styled XHTML output.
      >
      > So are many of us, which is why we choose docbook!



      Maybe am I wrong and then, could you tell me how I can get a "pure",
      table-less output?

      Thanks.



    1. 4.  Re: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

      Posted 05-15-2007 07:18
      Nicolas RAINARD wrote:

      >
      > I don't know how it goes for general layout, but I am absolutely sure a
      > table layout is used for QandAset (what I wanted for my first DocBook).

      Yes that does seem rather redundant.
      It is simply to get the number aligned with the question.
      How do you think it should be done?
      para, number, nbsp, question? Doesn't seem too hard does it?

      Bob? Is this history or is there another reason for it?



      > This is why I spent a whole day to search how I could resolve this. I
      > used the 5.0 XSLT and it seems it processes pretty much as the 4.x do. I
      > had a glimpse in the XSLT2 snapshot, and I didn't find a XHTML output in
      > this release. Maybe is it still automatically generated from the HTML
      > one? I am not sure it is the best way, for transitional HTML and strict
      > XHTML have few things in common.

      Rather than aiming for valid XHTML why not check your output for
      accessibility, then come back with questions?





      >
      > Moreover, the QandAset is rendered with definition lists (
      )
      > instead of ordered lists (
        ), which makes me puzzled...

        What's wrong with DL? There are no accessibility issues there?
        The use of a table within a DL is unecessary though.


        >
        >
        >
        > Maybe am I wrong and then, could you tell me how I can get a "pure",
        > table-less output?

        You need to define 'pure'.
        You mentioned accessibility. Is that your goal?




        regards

        --
        Dave Pawson
        XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
        http://www.dpawson.co.uk



      1. 5.  Re: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

        Posted 05-15-2007 12:50
        
        
          
          
        
        
        Dave Pawson wrote:
        
        Nicolas RAINARD wrote:

        This is why I spent a whole day to search how I could resolve this. I used the 5.0 XSLT and it seems it processes pretty much as the 4.x do. I had a glimpse in the XSLT2 snapshot, and I didn't find a XHTML output in this release. Maybe is it still automatically generated from the HTML one? I am not sure it is the best way, for transitional HTML and strict XHTML have few things in common.

        Rather than aiming for valid XHTML why not check your output for accessibility, then come back with questions?



        Moreover, the QandAset is rendered with definition lists (<dl></dl>) instead of ordered lists (<ol></ol>), which makes me puzzled...

        What's wrong with DL? There are no accessibility issues there?
        The use of a table within a DL is unecessary though.



        Maybe am I wrong and then, could you tell me how I can get a "pure", table-less output?

        You need to define 'pure'.
        You mentioned accessibility. Is that your goal?

        My goal is not only accessibility (I think these results are tolerably well accessible). What should be a common goal is to get a semantically correct, and elegant, output.

        For example, tables should be used only to present tabular data and not for the layout (but it seems everybody agrees with that).

        Definition lists should be used to present... lists of definitions.

        Here is an equivalence:

        DocBook

        <glossdiv>
            <glossentry>
                <glossterm>
                    Definition term 1
                </glossterm>
                <glossdef>
                    Definition data 1
                </glossdef>
            </glossentry>
            <glossentry>
                <glossterm>
                    Definition term 2
                </glossterm>
                <glossdef>
                    Definition data 2
                </glossdef>
            </glossentry>
        </glossdiv>


        could be transformed to:


        XHTML

        <dl class="glossary">
            <dt id="term01">
                Definition term 1
            </dt>
            <dd>
                Definition data 1
            </dd>
            <dt id="term02">
                Definition term 2
            </dt>
            <dd>
                Definition data 2
            </dd>
        </dl>




        DocBook

        <qandaset>
            <qandaentry>
                <question>
                    FAQ question 1
                </question>
                <answer>
                    FAQ answer 1
                </answer>
            </qandaentry>
            <qandaentry>
                <question>
                    FAQ question 2
                </question>
                <answer>
                    FAQ answer 2
                </answer>
            </qandaentry>
        </
        qandaset>


        could be transformed to:


        XHTML

        <ol class="qandaset">
            <li id="
        qandaentry01">
                <p class="question">
                    FAQ question 1
                </p>
                <p class="answer">
                    FAQ answer 1
                </p>
            </li>
            <li id="qandaentry02">
                <p class="question">
                    FAQ question 2
                </p>
                <p class="answer">
                    FAQ answer 2
                </p>
            </li>
        </ol>

        As you can see, there is no more need for tables, as well as hard-coded sections numbers, since they are automatically generated by the browser (and it is possible to use a <ul> instead if we don't want automatic numbering).

        Of course, DocBook is much more detailed, but it is considerably easier to strip some details than the reverse. Both DocBook and XHTML are XML flavors and they share many semantical structures, so it should be fairly easy to better preserve these structures. What are markups in DocBook can be transformed as attributes in XHTML to preserve the semantical meaning and give the required hooks for CSS presentation. In fact, it is much easier than transforming to "old-fashioned" HTML with tables layout.

        I'll have a look at the LFS XHTML XSLT (proposed by M. Canales), and see if they comply with such a state of mind.


      2. 6.  RE: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

        Posted 05-15-2007 13:17
        Nicolas,

        You state the case very well. I have also longed for a simple, modern,
        elegant XHTML output from DocBook source. This goal was elusive when
        designing Iona's DocBook-sourced XHTML books, and we fell far short of
        the clean output over in the Linux from Scratch project.

        It is sometimes disappointing to have set up a modern document building
        process, where books can be generated with the flick of the wrist --
        only to see the output littered with dozens of empty div's and
        table-based layout. DocBook-generated HTML is easy to spot in
        view-source mode because of these features, and DocBook-generated XHTML
        rarely passes standard validation tests. Sometimes it looks like a great
        leap forward into the 1990's.

        But even so, DocBook is the only game in town. And you don't have to buy
        an entire ecosystem like with most adventures in the DITA world. Perhaps
        over time, we can slowly steer the great DocBook tanker into the safe
        harbor of validated XHTML output.


        ________________________________

        <snip>

        My goal is not only accessibility (I think these results are tolerably
        well accessible). What should be a common goal is to get a semantically
        correct, and elegant, output.

        For example, tables should be used only to present tabular data and not
        for the layout (but it seems everybody agrees with that).

        Definition lists should be used to present... lists of definitions.

        Here is an equivalence:

        DocBook

        <glossdiv>
        <glossentry>
        <glossterm>
        Definition term 1
        </glossterm>
        <glossdef>
        Definition data 1
        </glossdef>
        </glossentry>
        <glossentry>
        <glossterm>
        Definition term 2
        </glossterm>
        <glossdef>
        Definition data 2
        </glossdef>
        </glossentry>
        </glossdiv>


        could be transformed to:


        XHTML



        Definition term 1


        Definition data 1


        Definition term 2


        Definition data 2






        DocBook

        <qandaset>
        <qandaentry>
        <question>
        FAQ question 1
        </question>
        <answer>
        FAQ answer 1
        </answer>
        </qandaentry>
        <qandaentry>
        <question>
        FAQ question 2
        </question>
        <answer>
        FAQ answer 2
        </answer>
        </qandaentry>
        </qandaset>


        could be transformed to:


        XHTML




        1. FAQ question 1



          FAQ answer 1





        2. FAQ question 2



          FAQ answer 2





        As you can see, there is no more need for tables, as well as hard-coded
        sections numbers, since they are automatically generated by the browser
        (and it is possible to use a
          instead if we don't want automatic
          numbering).

          Of course, DocBook is much more detailed, but it is considerably easier
          to strip some details than the reverse. Both DocBook and XHTML are XML
          flavors and they share many semantical structures, so it should be
          fairly easy to better preserve these structures. What are markups in
          DocBook can be transformed as attributes in XHTML to preserve the
          semantical meaning and give the required hooks for CSS presentation. In
          fact, it is much easier than transforming to "old-fashioned" HTML with
          tables layout.

          I'll have a look at the LFS XHTML XSLT (proposed by M. Canales), and see
          if they comply with such a state of mind.
          --------------------------------------------------------------------- To
          unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For
          additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-help@lists.oasis-open.org



      3. 7.  Re: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

        Posted 05-15-2007 14:17
        I want to defend the stylesheet writers:

        XSLT is, IMO, a functional programming language based largely on
        pattern matching. The source document trees can take many different
        forms and contain a variety of structures, while there are also many
        different output forms (for starters: fo, html/xhtml single/chunked).
        So, in this XSLT language, the stylesheet writers have to write a
        multi-input multi-output program and manage all the interactions of
        their transformations. This is not so easy to do, especially in one's
        spare time.

        I think we should give them slack. Are the embedded tables killing us?
        No. Is the output highly accessible already? Yes.

        On 5/15/07, Nicolas RAINARD <nicolas_rainard@yahoo.fr> wrote:
        >
        > Dave Pawson wrote:
        > Nicolas RAINARD wrote:
        >
        >
        > This is why I spent a whole day to search how I could resolve this. I used
        > the 5.0 XSLT and it seems it processes pretty much as the 4.x do. I had a
        > glimpse in the XSLT2 snapshot, and I didn't find a XHTML output in this
        > release. Maybe is it still automatically generated from the HTML one? I am
        > not sure it is the best way, for transitional HTML and strict XHTML have few
        > things in common.
        >
        > Rather than aiming for valid XHTML why not check your output for
        > accessibility, then come back with questions?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Moreover, the QandAset is rendered with definition lists (
        )
        > instead of ordered lists (
          ), which makes me puzzled...
          >
          > What's wrong with DL? There are no accessibility issues there?
          > The use of a table within a DL is unecessary though.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Maybe am I wrong and then, could you tell me how I can get a "pure",
          > table-less output?
          >
          > You need to define 'pure'.
          > You mentioned accessibility. Is that your goal?
          >
          > My goal is not only accessibility (I think these results are tolerably well
          > accessible). What should be a common goal is to get a semantically correct,
          > and elegant, output.
          >
          > For example, tables should be used only to present tabular data and not for
          > the layout (but it seems everybody agrees with that).
          >
          > Definition lists should be used to present... lists of definitions.
          >
          > Here is an equivalence:
          >
          > DocBook
          >
          > <glossdiv>
          > <glossentry>
          > <glossterm>
          > Definition term 1
          > </glossterm>
          > <glossdef>
          > Definition data 1
          > </glossdef>
          > </glossentry>
          > <glossentry>
          > <glossterm>
          > Definition term 2
          > </glossterm>
          > <glossdef>
          > Definition data 2
          > </glossdef>
          > </glossentry>
          > </glossdiv>
          >
          >
          > could be transformed to:
          >
          >
          > XHTML
          >
          >

          >

          > Definition term 1
          >

          >

          > Definition data 1
          >

          >

          > Definition term 2
          >

          >

          > Definition data 2
          >

          >

          >
          >
          >
          >
          > DocBook
          >
          > <qandaset>
          > <qandaentry>
          > <question>
          > FAQ question 1
          > </question>
          > <answer>
          > FAQ answer 1
          > </answer>
          > </qandaentry>
          > <qandaentry>
          > <question>
          > FAQ question 2
          > </question>
          > <answer>
          > FAQ answer 2
          > </answer>
          > </qandaentry>
          > </qandaset>
          >
          >
          > could be transformed to:
          >
          >
          > XHTML
          >
          >

            >

          1. >


            > FAQ question 1
            >


            >


            > FAQ answer 1
            >


            >

          2. >

          3. >


            > FAQ question 2
            >


            >


            > FAQ answer 2
            >


            >

          4. >

          >
          > As you can see, there is no more need for tables, as well as hard-coded
          > sections numbers, since they are automatically generated by the browser (and
          > it is possible to use a
            instead if we don't want automatic numbering).
            >
            > Of course, DocBook is much more detailed, but it is considerably easier to
            > strip some details than the reverse. Both DocBook and XHTML are XML flavors
            > and they share many semantical structures, so it should be fairly easy to
            > better preserve these structures. What are markups in DocBook can be
            > transformed as attributes in XHTML to preserve the semantical meaning and
            > give the required hooks for CSS presentation. In fact, it is much easier
            > than transforming to "old-fashioned" HTML with tables layout.
            >
            > I'll have a look at the LFS XHTML XSLT (proposed by M. Canales), and see if
            > they comply with such a state of mind.
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
            > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
            > docbook-apps-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For
            > additional commands, e-mail:
            > docbook-apps-help@lists.oasis-open.org


            --
            http://chris.chiasson.name/



        1. 8.  RE: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

          Posted 05-15-2007 14:49
          Chris is correct. Is the XHTML perfect or "modern"? Perhaps not. Does it
          produce useable, accessible output? Yes. The output we've managed to get
          from it for IONA's documentation looks very nice and is very workable.

          If people are so down on the output perhaps they could put some of their
          ideas into action...

          The people who developed and maintain the style sheets deserve both some
          slack and our appreciation.

          >


        2. 9.  RE: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

          Posted 05-15-2007 15:21
          No-one is taking anything away from anyone, except perhaps the notion that Netscape 4.7 is the yardstick for interoperability.

          XHTML has already become the lingua franca for compiling representations of documents from a variety of sources for further processing.

          Quite often, the output from the DocBook XSLT stylesheets becomes input for another process. And yes, tables and weird spans and divs are a PITA.

          Kind regards
          Peter Ring

          >


        3. 10.  Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

          Posted 05-14-2007 16:59
          El Lunes, 14 de Mayo de 2007 15:42, Nicolas RAINARD escribió:

          > What is the current step of this project? Is it still undergoing or as
          > it been abandoned? For many reasons, I am very interested in getting
          > semantical, CSS styled XHTML output.
          > Thanks.

          In LFS we have a CSS styled based customization that generates
          XHTML-1.0-Strict code. It tries also to be semantically correct (navigational
          links uses ul instead of table, for example) and to clean-up the XHTML code.

          You can see the XSL and CSS costomization code based on current
          docbook-xsl-snapshot here:

          http://wiki.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/browser/branches/new-xsl

          All customized templates are commented listing that changes made are were can
          be found the upstream DocBook template (that are included also in the
          docbook-xsl-snapshot/ subdirectory until have the next stable DocBook-XSL
          version available).

          An example of the output can be found here:

          http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/~manuel/new-xsl/


          --
          Manuel Canales Esparcia
          Usuario de LFS nº2886: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org
          LFS en castellano: http://www.escomposlinux.org/lfs-es http://www.lfs-es.info
          TLDP-ES: http://es.tldp.org



        4. 11.  Re: [docbook-apps] Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

          Posted 05-15-2007 06:38
          
          
            
          
          
          M.Canales.es wrote:
          
          El Lunes, 14 de Mayo de 2007 15:42, Nicolas RAINARD escribió:
          
            
          What is the current step of this project? Is it still undergoing or as
          it been abandoned? For many reasons, I am very interested in getting
          semantical, CSS styled XHTML output.
          Thanks.
              
          
          In LFS we have a CSS styled based customization that generates 
          XHTML-1.0-Strict code. It tries also to be semantically correct (navigational 
          links uses ul instead of table, for example) and to clean-up the XHTML code.
          
          You can see the XSL and CSS costomization code based on current 
          docbook-xsl-snapshot here:
          
          http://wiki.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/browser/branches/new-xsl
          
          All customized templates are commented listing that changes made are were can 
          be found the upstream DocBook template (that are included also in the 
          docbook-xsl-snapshot/ subdirectory until have the next stable DocBook-XSL 
          version available).
          
          An example of the output can be found here:
          
          http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/~manuel/new-xsl/
            

          Thank you for telling me about your project, this is pretty much what I was looking for. The XHTML output is much cleaner to me (except, maybe, the semantically ordered lists which are rendered as <ul> with hard-coded numbers). You definitively should make your work more public.

          Thanks again.


        5. 12.  Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: [docbook-apps] Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

          Posted 05-15-2007 17:51
          El Martes, 15 de Mayo de 2007 08:37, Nicolas RAINARD escribió:

          > Thank you for telling me about your project, this is pretty much what I
          > was looking for. The XHTML output is much cleaner to me (except, maybe, the
          > semantically ordered lists which are rendered as
            with hard-coded
            > numbers).

            Yes, it's not perfect. Only the templates for that DB elements we need a
            customized output has been changed and cleaned in part.

            And there is a lot of hacks that depends on how our DocBook-XML code is
            structured a will not work on other projects.

            But is an example that with some basic changes on the stock DocBook-XSL code a
            more simple and nice XHTML code output is possible.

            > You definitively should make your work more public.

            It is public and free software. The current XSL code used in production-mode
            (based on DocBook-XSL-1.69.1) is available inside the *LFS books sources
            trees. The XML and XSL sources for the master LFS book can by fetch via SVN
            using:

            svn co svn://svn.linuxfromscratch.org/LFS/trunk/BOOK/

            The new-xsl code, that is a full rework of the old one to support all *LFS
            books flavours using a common customization layout (I need to port yet the
            specific code for HLFS and CLFS) can be fetch using:

            svn co svn://svn.linuxfromscratch.org/LFS/branches/new-xsl/

            --
            Manuel Canales Esparcia
            Usuario de LFS nº2886: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org
            LFS en castellano: http://www.escomposlinux.org/lfs-es http://www.lfs-es.info
            TLDP-ES: http://es.tldp.org



        6. 13.  Re: [docbook-apps] To Rene Hache, Larry Garfield, Bob Stayton, Jirka Kosek - About a former XHTML accessiblity project

          Posted 05-15-2007 12:31
          On Monday 14 May 2007, Nicolas RAINARD wrote:
          > Several years ago, you were talking about getting "Simpler XHTML output"
          > (initiating thread can be found at
          > http://www.cygwin.com/ml/docbook-apps/2005-q2/msg00230.html).
          > The whole discussion broached in accessibility and CSS layout, instead
          > of tables layout. It seems you started a new project: to make a brand
          > new forked XHTML XSL.
          > What is the current step of this project? Is it still undergoing or as
          > it been abandoned? For many reasons, I am very interested in getting
          > semantical, CSS styled XHTML output.
          > Thanks.
          >
          > Nicolas R.

          Good lord that's a while ago. :-)

          I'm afraid I've not done much with DocBook since then. I have one big DocBook
          project that I manage, but it hasn't had much in the way of changes since
          then save for me breaking my build environment on a regular basis. My XSLT
          skillz, and DocBook skillz in particular, have gotten a bit rusty in the
          interum. I'd love to see a cleaner, leaner, modern-structure XHTML output
          option for DocBook, but I've not had any time to work on it nor do I expect
          to for some time. (I'm off in PHP land speaking my native language. <g>)

          --
          Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42
          larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012

          "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
          exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea,
          which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to
          himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession
          of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas
          Jefferson