docbook-apps

  • 1.  future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-18-2016 18:51
    The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
    version of DocBook in a future version 6. We would like to hear from
    any members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.

    Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our
    long term planning. The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining
    backwards compatibility on point releases because we know how much the
    DocBook community relies on stable sources. When DocBook rolls to a new
    major version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce
    changes that are not backwards compatible. The change from 4 to 5 was
    such. If we foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community
    very advanced notice to prepare for them.

    We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
    Schematron rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.

    However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is
    proving burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a
    conversion program, and requires manual tweaking. Because we are not
    sure if anyone is actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if
    this is worth the effort. If you are using it, or have tools that
    depend on XSD, please let us know.

    You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the
    mailing list.

    --
    Bob Stayton
    Sagehill Enterprises
    bobs@sagehill.net



  • 2.  Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-18-2016 20:14
    + for rng only.
    I can honestly say I've never used xml schema for docbook (or anything
    else for that matter)
    I do validate many instances though, using Jing / oXygen
    regards

    On 18 October 2016 at 19:51, Bob Stayton <bobs@sagehill.net> wrote:
    > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
    > version of DocBook in a future version 6. We would like to hear from any
    > members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
    >
    > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our long
    > term planning. The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards
    > compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook
    > community relies on stable sources. When DocBook rolls to a new major
    > version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that
    > are not backwards compatible. The change from 4 to 5 was such. If we
    > foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
    > notice to prepare for them.
    >
    > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron
    > rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
    >
    > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving
    > burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion
    > program, and requires manual tweaking. Because we are not sure if anyone is
    > actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the
    > effort. If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please let
    > us know.
    >
    > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the mailing
    > list.
    >
    > --
    > Bob Stayton
    > Sagehill Enterprises
    > bobs@sagehill.net
    >
    > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    >



    --
    Dave Pawson
    XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
    Docbook FAQ.
    http://www.dpawson.co.uk



  • 3.  Re: [docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-18-2016 20:27
    I don't use xsd either.
    I use docbook.nvdl with the onvdl program.

    thanks for asking!
    --Tim


    On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com> wrote:

    > + for rng only.
    > I can honestly say I've never used xml schema for docbook (or anything
    > else for that matter)
    > I do validate many instances though, using Jing / oXygen
    > regards
    >
    > On 18 October 2016 at 19:51, Bob Stayton <bobs@sagehill.net> wrote:
    > > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
    > > version of DocBook in a future version 6. We would like to hear from any
    > > members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
    > >
    > > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our
    > long
    > > term planning. The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards
    > > compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook
    > > community relies on stable sources. When DocBook rolls to a new major
    > > version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that
    > > are not backwards compatible. The change from 4 to 5 was such. If we
    > > foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
    > > notice to prepare for them.
    > >
    > > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
    > Schematron
    > > rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
    > >
    > > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving
    > > burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion
    > > program, and requires manual tweaking. Because we are not sure if
    > anyone is
    > > actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the
    > > effort. If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please
    > let
    > > us know.
    > >
    > > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the
    > mailing
    > > list.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Bob Stayton
    > > Sagehill Enterprises
    > > bobs@sagehill.net
    > >
    > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Dave Pawson
    > XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
    > Docbook FAQ.
    > http://www.dpawson.co.uk
    >
    > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    >
    >



  • 4.  Re: [docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-18-2016 20:55
    DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron does all I need
    Ron

    On 10/18/2016 03:27 PM, Tim Arnold wrote:
    > I don't use xsd either.
    > I use docbook.nvdl with the onvdl program.
    >
    > thanks for asking!
    > --Tim
    >
    >
    > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com
    > <mailto:dave.pawson@gmail.com>> wrote:
    >
    > + for rng only.
    > I can honestly say I've never used xml schema for docbook (or anything
    > else for that matter)
    > I do validate many instances though, using Jing / oXygen
    > regards
    >
    > On 18 October 2016 at 19:51, Bob Stayton <bobs@sagehill.net
    > <mailto:bobs@sagehill.net>> wrote:
    > > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
    > > version of DocBook in a future version 6. We would like to hear
    > from any
    > > members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
    > >
    > > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part
    > of our long
    > > term planning. The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining
    > backwards
    > > compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook
    > > community relies on stable sources. When DocBook rolls to a new major
    > > version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce
    > changes that
    > > are not backwards compatible. The change from 4 to 5 was such. If we
    > > foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very
    > advanced
    > > notice to prepare for them.
    > >
    > > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
    > Schematron
    > > rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
    > >
    > > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is
    > proving
    > > burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion
    > > program, and requires manual tweaking. Because we are not sure if
    > anyone is
    > > actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the
    > > effort. If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD,
    > please let
    > > us know.
    > >
    > > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on
    > the mailing
    > > list.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Bob Stayton
    > > Sagehill Enterprises
    > > bobs@sagehill.net <mailto:bobs@sagehill.net>
    > >
    > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > <mailto:docbook-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org>
    > > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    > <mailto:docbook-help@lists.oasis-open.org>
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Dave Pawson
    > XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.
    > Docbook FAQ.
    > http://www.dpawson.co.uk
    >
    > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
    > docbook-apps-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > <mailto:docbook-apps-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org>
    > For additional commands, e-mail:
    > docbook-apps-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    > <mailto:docbook-apps-help@lists.oasis-open.org>
    >
    >

    --
    Ron Catterall
    ron@catterall.net



  • 5.  Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-18-2016 21:05
    Hi Bob,

    I manage a large schema that uses DocBook 5. The normative schema is RelaxNG. This schema is automatically translated to XSD using Trang, but the resulting XSD files have to be post-processed in order to fix them before they are useable by consumers.

    DocBook 6 in pure RelaxNG+Schematron would be fine with me.

    Cheers,
    Steve Ball

    > On 19 Oct 2016, at 5:51 AM, Bob Stayton <bobs@sagehill.net> wrote:
    >
    > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema version of DocBook in a future version 6. We would like to hear from any members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
    >
    > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our long term planning. The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook community relies on stable sources. When DocBook rolls to a new major version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that are not backwards compatible. The change from 4 to 5 was such. If we foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced notice to prepare for them.
    >
    > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
    >
    > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion program, and requires manual tweaking. Because we are not sure if anyone is actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the effort. If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please let us know.
    >
    > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the mailing list.
    >
    > --
    > Bob Stayton
    > Sagehill Enterprises
    > bobs@sagehill.net
    >
    > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    >




  • 6.  Re: [docbook-apps] Re: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-19-2016 04:26
    Hi,

    At present we are using declarations that reference the XSD, such as:

    <book xml:id="some-guide"
    xmlns="http://docbook.org/ns/docbook" version="5.0" xml:lang="en"
    xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
    xsi:schemaLocation="http://docbook.org/ns/docbook
    http://docbook.org/xml/5.0/xsd/docbook.xsd"
    xmlns:xinclude="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">
    ...
    </book>

    It looks like the XMLSchema-related attributes are unnecessary. In other
    words, if I remove cached schemas from my editor (using IntelliJ IDEA),
    edit the book and open it again, this appears to work fine as well for
    validation and tag completion and so forth:

    <book xml:id="some-guide"
    xmlns="http://docbook.org/ns/docbook" version="5.0" xml:lang="en"
    xmlns:xinclude="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">
    ...
    </book>

    How does an editor know how to resolve that to
    http://docbook.org/xml/5.0/rng/docbook.rng?

    We also use a tool for validation and link checking that currently uses the
    XSD, though it can no doubt be changed to use the RNG.

    Regards,
    Mark

    On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Steve Ball <Steve.Ball@explain.com.au>
    wrote:

    > Hi Bob,
    >
    > I manage a large schema that uses DocBook 5. The normative schema is
    > RelaxNG. This schema is automatically translated to XSD using Trang, but
    > the resulting XSD files have to be post-processed in order to fix them
    > before they are useable by consumers.
    >
    > DocBook 6 in pure RelaxNG+Schematron would be fine with me.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Steve Ball
    >
    > > On 19 Oct 2016, at 5:51 AM, Bob Stayton <bobs@sagehill.net> wrote:
    > >
    > > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
    > version of DocBook in a future version 6. We would like to hear from any
    > members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
    > >
    > > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our
    > long term planning. The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining
    > backwards compatibility on point releases because we know how much the
    > DocBook community relies on stable sources. When DocBook rolls to a new
    > major version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes
    > that are not backwards compatible. The change from 4 to 5 was such. If we
    > foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced
    > notice to prepare for them.
    > >
    > > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
    > Schematron rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
    > >
    > > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is
    > proving burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a
    > conversion program, and requires manual tweaking. Because we are not sure
    > if anyone is actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is
    > worth the effort. If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD,
    > please let us know.
    > >
    > > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the
    > mailing list.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Bob Stayton
    > > Sagehill Enterprises
    > > bobs@sagehill.net
    > >
    > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    > >
    >
    >
    > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    > To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    >
    >



  • 7.  Re: [docbook-apps] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-19-2016 05:39
    I *never* used the XSD schema in fifteen years.

    jmt




    On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:51:14 -0700
    Bob Stayton <bobs@sagehill.net> wrote:

    > The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema
    > version of DocBook in a future version 6. We would like to hear from
    > any members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.
    >
    > Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our
    > long term planning. The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining
    > backwards compatibility on point releases because we know how much the
    > DocBook community relies on stable sources. When DocBook rolls to a new
    > major version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce
    > changes that are not backwards compatible. The change from 4 to 5 was
    > such. If we foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community
    > very advanced notice to prepare for them.
    >
    > We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with
    > Schematron rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.
    >
    > However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is
    > proving burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a
    > conversion program, and requires manual tweaking. Because we are not
    > sure if anyone is actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if
    > this is worth the effort. If you are using it, or have tools that
    > depend on XSD, please let us know.
    >
    > You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the
    > mailing list.
    >



    --


    Jean-Marie Thomas




    Informatique technique et scientifique

    http://www.dxdydz.net




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  • 8.  WG: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-19-2016 18:16
    Up to now we have never used the XSD version of DocBook in our projects.

    I allways thought that there is one big advantage for the XSD version: schema-aware XSLT. Would be cool if we could use all the nice possibilities of schema-aware xslt for DocBook as input. But all the projects, where this could have been an option, are based on a *modified* DocBook grammar. Typically, we reduce DocBook 5 to the elements that we really need, and extend it at the same time with elements from a different namespace. We use the customization methods described in chapter 5 of the DocBook Guide.

    The XSD version of DocBook would only be helpfull for us, it we were able to do customization as easy at it is with Relax NG. Or if we could do customization with the Relax NG version and apply the transformation to XSD Schema by ourselves. As far as i understand your mail, neither of these is likely possible in the future. In this case, it is no problem if you drop the XSD version.

    Sincerely,
    Frank Steimke


    -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
    Von: Bob Stayton [mailto:bobs@sagehill.net]
    Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Oktober 2016 20:51
    An: docbook-apps@lists.oasis-open.org; docbook@lists.oasis-open.org
    Betreff: [docbook] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    The DocBook Technical Committee is considering dropping the XML Schema version of DocBook in a future version 6. We would like to hear from any members of the DocBook community who would be affected by this change.

    Let me be clear that this change is not on the horizon, but part of our long term planning. The DocBook TC takes great care in maintaining backwards compatibility on point releases because we know how much the DocBook community relies on stable sources. When DocBook rolls to a new major version number, we treat that as an opportunity to introduce changes that are not backwards compatible. The change from 4 to 5 was such. If we foresee such changes coming, we give the DocBook community very advanced notice to prepare for them.

    We will continue to maintain the DocBook standard in RelaxNG with Schematron rules, and will continue to generate a compatible DTD.

    However, the process of maintaining the XSD version of DocBook is proving burdensome because it cannot be completely generated by a conversion program, and requires manual tweaking. Because we are not sure if anyone is actually using the XSD version, we are wondering if this is worth the effort. If you are using it, or have tools that depend on XSD, please let us know.

    You can reply directly to me if you don't want to discuss it on the mailing list.

    --
    Bob Stayton
    Sagehill Enterprises
    bobs@sagehill.net

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  • 9.  RE: [docbook-apps] future of DocBook XML Schema (XSD)?

    Posted 10-21-2016 13:16
    Hello,


    I have been using the XSD wherever possible. Mostly XSD is more convenient in a .NET Framework world.
    - For validation both DTD and XSD are natively supported by the framework, but Relax NG is not.
    - Many tools for .NET-framework development have better (or only) support for XSD, not for DTD.
    - XSD based logic can be traversed in .NET languages (which I once used for an autocomplete syntax editor for another XML standard). I have not found a way to do so for DTD's. For Relax NG there is no native support (AFAIK).

    On the other side:
    - I understand it may be very uncommon to use DocBook in a .NET world (and vice versa).
    - I would not lose any production implementation if XSD-support would cease to exist.
    - I may very well be the only one actually using it, making it unreasonable to keep supporting it.

    Nevertheless, as Bob asked for it, I just want to raise my hand to confirm that I do use it.


    Jan Driesen



    Original Message


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