OASIS Energy Interoperation TC

  • 1.  Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Posted 09-14-2009 13:16
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Hi EI folks,

    In reflecting on Ed Kochs presentation last week, I start to think about the semantics of Notifications, Requests, and Orders.  Especially in the context of normal business transactions (Purchase Orders, Requests for Quotes, Price Notifications.

    I think part of what Ed was saying (and Ed Id like to hear your thoughts) is that the presence of price information in the ESI messages dont identify the nature (i.e. senders intent) of the message.  I think it would be good if the ESI message/information is clearly identified as Notifications, Requests, or Orders.  Here is how I think of them:

    From the senders perspective:

    Notifications: Here is some information.  I want to be sure you received it because that is my responsibility.  I dont care what you do with it (I might care what the majority of recipients do).

    Requests: Id like you to do XYZ.  Please let me know if you will do it or that you did it and maybe what the results are.

    Orders:  We agreed that I could tell you to do XYZ.  I may want you to confirm that you will and/or have.  I might only care to learn after the fact that you did not do XYZ because I need to punish you.  I may or may not be able to do anything with the knowledge that you plan to defy our agreement.

    Part of the difficulty I have in reconciling the CA OpenADR and the concept of the ESI is that the paradigm in my head for the DRAS is one system (Server, Client).  I imagine the ESI interface to be between two systems (Peer to Peer).  Not sure if that makes much of a difference at the Type level.

    I am advocating that the ESI we define have clear options for distinguishing between Notifications, Requests, and Orders.

    Thoughts?

    Dave

    David Wilson

    Enterprise Solutions Portfolio Manager

    Trane Commercial Systems

    Ingersoll Rand

    Office: +1.651.407.4168

    Mobile: +1.612.741.2759

    Email: davidcwilson@trane.com

    www.trane.com

     
    The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.


  • 2.  RE: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Posted 09-14-2009 15:45
    
    
    
    
    
    
    


  • 3.  RE: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Posted 09-14-2009 16:49
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    David, I agree with you but I would caution that without the use-cases (that we were going to work on!), these messages may change dramatically depending on the actors.

    Gale, in the current Zigbee SEP protocol, messages/notifications are simply used to communicate “text” between the utilities and the consumers. I am not yet sure how valuable this is but I can see some use-cases such as: you are scheduled for a service at 10:00 AM, or if you do not pay by Friday, we’ll shut everything off.

    With kind regards,

    ********************************

    Michel Kohanim, C.E.O

    Universal Devices, Inc.

    (p) 818.631.0333

    (f) 818.708.0755

    http://www.universal-devices.com

    ********************************

    From: Horst, Gale [mailto:ghorst@epri.com]
    Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 8:45 AM
    To: Wilson, David C (St. Paul); energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Team:

    Those are interesting comments.  I don’t recall if we have discussed this before.  But it begs questions about whether there are smart grid messages in this space that are tied to contractual obligations as described by the “Orders” classification Dave mentions.

    My first impulse is that regulatory and contractual obligations should not be tied to the messages but should be enabled and supportable by the messages.  I think this discussion may fall under the header of project scope.

    Although I see the difference, I have a difficulty separating  a notification from a request.  If you don’t intend to motivate a response, why would you send a notice?  If the message is an “Order”, the real difference is that you are not only wanting a grid-impacting change, you are counting on it.  But it would seem that OpenADR  DRAS should be able to accommodate this difference in a way that enables a clean one-to-many message rather than peer-to-peer.  If peer-to-peer is desired, then the DRAS would represent the end use node and be considered the “peer” that responds to the “order”.

    My 2-cents,

    Gale

    Gale R. Horst

    Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI)
    Office: 865-218-8078
    ghorst@epri.com


    From: Wilson, David C (St. Paul) [mailto:DavidCWilson@trane.com]
    Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:16 AM
    To: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Hi EI folks,

    In reflecting on Ed Koch’s presentation last week, I start to think about the semantics of “Notifications”, “Requests”, and “Orders”.  Especially in the context of normal business transactions (Purchase Orders, Requests for Quotes, Price Notifications.

    I think part of what Ed was saying (and Ed I’d like to hear your thoughts) is that the presence of price information in the ESI messages don’t identify the nature (i.e. sender’s intent) of the message.  I think it would be good if the ESI message/information is clearly identified as “Notifications”, “Requests”, or “Orders”.  Here is how I think of them:

    From the sender’s perspective:

    Notifications: Here is some information.  I want to be sure you received it because that is my responsibility.  I don’t care what you do with it (I might care what the majority of recipients do).

    Requests: I’d like you to do XYZ.  Please let me know if you will do it or that you did it and maybe what the results are.

    Orders:  We agreed that I could tell you to do XYZ.  I may want you to confirm that you will and/or have.  I might only care to learn after the fact that you did not do XYZ because I need to punish you.  I may or may not be able to do anything with the knowledge that you plan to defy our agreement.

    Part of the difficulty I have in reconciling the CA OpenADR and the concept of the ESI is that the paradigm in my head for the DRAS is one system (Server, Client).  I imagine the ESI “interface” to be between two systems (“Peer to Peer”).  Not sure if that makes much of a difference at the Type level.

    I am advocating that the ESI we define have clear options for distinguishing between “Notifications”, “Requests”, and “Orders”.

    Thoughts?

    Dave

    David Wilson

    Enterprise Solutions Portfolio Manager

    Trane Commercial Systems

    Ingersoll Rand

    Office: +1.651.407.4168

    Mobile: +1.612.741.2759

    Email: davidcwilson@trane.com

    www.trane.com

     

    The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.



  • 4.  RE: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Posted 09-15-2009 00:13
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I’m with Gale

    If I have a contract with you that says “I may respond”, then you need to notify me.

    If I have a contract that “I must respond” then you need to notify me.

    Notification is notification.

    But I do have a question. What is the interaction to tell [relatively dumb device] the contract #[must respond] ids in place, so device knows that a manadatory response is required tomorrow. Worrying about this is what keeps me from a simple price & notification only model…

    tc


    "A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying ... that he is wiser today than yesterday." -- Jonathan Swift


    Toby Considine

    Chair, OASIS oBIX TC
    Facilities Technology Office
    University of North Carolina
    Chapel Hill, NC

      

    Email: Toby.Considine@fac.unc.edu" title="mailto:Toby.Considine@fac.unc.edu">Toby.Considine@ unc.edu
    Phone: (919)962-9073

    http://www.oasis-open.org

    blog: www.NewDaedalus.com

    From: Horst, Gale [mailto:ghorst@epri.com]
    Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 11:45 AM
    To: Wilson, David C (St. Paul); energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Team:

    Those are interesting comments.  I don’t recall if we have discussed this before.  But it begs questions about whether there are smart grid messages in this space that are tied to contractual obligations as described by the “Orders” classification Dave mentions.

    My first impulse is that regulatory and contractual obligations should not be tied to the messages but should be enabled and supportable by the messages.  I think this discussion may fall under the header of project scope.

    Although I see the difference, I have a difficulty separating  a notification from a request.  If you don’t intend to motivate a response, why would you send a notice?  If the message is an “Order”, the real difference is that you are not only wanting a grid-impacting change, you are counting on it.  But it would seem that OpenADR  DRAS should be able to accommodate this difference in a way that enables a clean one-to-many message rather than peer-to-peer.  If peer-to-peer is desired, then the DRAS would represent the end use node and be considered the “peer” that responds to the “order”.

    My 2-cents,

    Gale

    Gale R. Horst

    Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI)
    Office: 865-218-8078
    ghorst@epri.com


    From: Wilson, David C (St. Paul) [mailto:DavidCWilson@trane.com]
    Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:16 AM
    To: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Hi EI folks,

    In reflecting on Ed Koch’s presentation last week, I start to think about the semantics of “Notifications”, “Requests”, and “Orders”.  Especially in the context of normal business transactions (Purchase Orders, Requests for Quotes, Price Notifications.

    I think part of what Ed was saying (and Ed I’d like to hear your thoughts) is that the presence of price information in the ESI messages don’t identify the nature (i.e. sender’s intent) of the message.  I think it would be good if the ESI message/information is clearly identified as “Notifications”, “Requests”, or “Orders”.  Here is how I think of them:

    From the sender’s perspective:

    Notifications: Here is some information.  I want to be sure you received it because that is my responsibility.  I don’t care what you do with it (I might care what the majority of recipients do).

    Requests: I’d like you to do XYZ.  Please let me know if you will do it or that you did it and maybe what the results are.

    Orders:  We agreed that I could tell you to do XYZ.  I may want you to confirm that you will and/or have.  I might only care to learn after the fact that you did not do XYZ because I need to punish you.  I may or may not be able to do anything with the knowledge that you plan to defy our agreement.

    Part of the difficulty I have in reconciling the CA OpenADR and the concept of the ESI is that the paradigm in my head for the DRAS is one system (Server, Client).  I imagine the ESI “interface” to be between two systems (“Peer to Peer”).  Not sure if that makes much of a difference at the Type level.

    I am advocating that the ESI we define have clear options for distinguishing between “Notifications”, “Requests”, and “Orders”.

    Thoughts?

    Dave

    David Wilson

    Enterprise Solutions Portfolio Manager

    Trane Commercial Systems

    Ingersoll Rand

    Office: +1.651.407.4168

    Mobile: +1.612.741.2759

    Email: davidcwilson@trane.com

    www.trane.com

     

    The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.



  • 5.  RE: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Posted 09-15-2009 05:42
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    It all depends on how dumb the device is. For instance, one cannot expect a regular switch/relay to be intelligent enough to understand contracts, pricing, and responses. I have to rephrase: one could expect such a functionality but the question is how much are we willing to pay for such an intelligent device to perform such a dumb job (turn something on/off).

    I think it’s the job of ESI/EMS/EMCS/Gateway/BAS to handle contracts/pricing and figure out how to respond intelligently and accurately.

    With kind regards,

    ********************************

    Michel Kohanim, C.E.O

    Universal Devices, Inc.

    (p) 818.631.0333

    (f) 818.708.0755

    http://www.universal-devices.com

    ********************************

    From: Considine, Toby (Campus Services IT) [mailto:Toby.Considine@unc.edu]
    Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 5:13 PM
    To: 'energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org'
    Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    I’m with Gale

    If I have a contract with you that says “I may respond”, then you need to notify me.

    If I have a contract that “I must respond” then you need to notify me.

    Notification is notification.

    But I do have a question. What is the interaction to tell [relatively dumb device] the contract #[must respond] ids in place, so device knows that a manadatory response is required tomorrow. Worrying about this is what keeps me from a simple price & notification only model…

    tc


    "A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying ... that he is wiser today than yesterday." -- Jonathan Swift


    Toby Considine

    Chair, OASIS oBIX TC
    Facilities Technology Office
    University of North Carolina
    Chapel Hill, NC

      

    Email: Toby.Considine@fac.unc.edu" title="mailto:Toby.Considine@fac.unc.edu">Toby.Considine@ unc.edu
    Phone: (919)962-9073

    http://www.oasis-open.org

    blog: www.NewDaedalus.com

    From: Horst, Gale [mailto:ghorst@epri.com]
    Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 11:45 AM
    To: Wilson, David C (St. Paul); energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: RE: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Team:

    Those are interesting comments.  I don’t recall if we have discussed this before.  But it begs questions about whether there are smart grid messages in this space that are tied to contractual obligations as described by the “Orders” classification Dave mentions.

    My first impulse is that regulatory and contractual obligations should not be tied to the messages but should be enabled and supportable by the messages.  I think this discussion may fall under the header of project scope.

    Although I see the difference, I have a difficulty separating  a notification from a request.  If you don’t intend to motivate a response, why would you send a notice?  If the message is an “Order”, the real difference is that you are not only wanting a grid-impacting change, you are counting on it.  But it would seem that OpenADR  DRAS should be able to accommodate this difference in a way that enables a clean one-to-many message rather than peer-to-peer.  If peer-to-peer is desired, then the DRAS would represent the end use node and be considered the “peer” that responds to the “order”.

    My 2-cents,

    Gale

    Gale R. Horst

    Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI)
    Office: 865-218-8078
    ghorst@epri.com


    From: Wilson, David C (St. Paul) [mailto:DavidCWilson@trane.com]
    Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:16 AM
    To: energyinterop@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: [energyinterop] Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Hi EI folks,

    In reflecting on Ed Koch’s presentation last week, I start to think about the semantics of “Notifications”, “Requests”, and “Orders”.  Especially in the context of normal business transactions (Purchase Orders, Requests for Quotes, Price Notifications.

    I think part of what Ed was saying (and Ed I’d like to hear your thoughts) is that the presence of price information in the ESI messages don’t identify the nature (i.e. sender’s intent) of the message.  I think it would be good if the ESI message/information is clearly identified as “Notifications”, “Requests”, or “Orders”.  Here is how I think of them:

    From the sender’s perspective:

    Notifications: Here is some information.  I want to be sure you received it because that is my responsibility.  I don’t care what you do with it (I might care what the majority of recipients do).

    Requests: I’d like you to do XYZ.  Please let me know if you will do it or that you did it and maybe what the results are.

    Orders:  We agreed that I could tell you to do XYZ.  I may want you to confirm that you will and/or have.  I might only care to learn after the fact that you did not do XYZ because I need to punish you.  I may or may not be able to do anything with the knowledge that you plan to defy our agreement.

    Part of the difficulty I have in reconciling the CA OpenADR and the concept of the ESI is that the paradigm in my head for the DRAS is one system (Server, Client).  I imagine the ESI “interface” to be between two systems (“Peer to Peer”).  Not sure if that makes much of a difference at the Type level.

    I am advocating that the ESI we define have clear options for distinguishing between “Notifications”, “Requests”, and “Orders”.

    Thoughts?

    Dave

    David Wilson

    Enterprise Solutions Portfolio Manager

    Trane Commercial Systems

    Ingersoll Rand

    Office: +1.651.407.4168

    Mobile: +1.612.741.2759

    Email: davidcwilson@trane.com

    www.trane.com

     

    The information contained in this message is privileged and intended only for the recipients named. If the reader is not a representative of the intended recipient, any review, dissemination or copying of this message or the information it contains is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and attachments.



  • 6.  RE: Notification vs. Request vs. Order

    Posted 09-14-2009 15:52