Greetings! Notes from today's ODF Teleconference are below! Hope everyone is at the start of a great week! Patrick **************** Svante Schubert: Hello everyone Svante Schubert: BTW I have solved the mystery of the special characters in my mail list post today. It is not the a problem of GMail, but a problem of the old OASIS backend. Non-breaking space characters are not handled correctly. Patrick: The full amended agenda to follow but I added these three items: a. Update on request for ODF 1.4 templates b. Version control - suggestions? c. Style extraction and normalization Patrick: Amended Agenda ------ 1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights 2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda 3. Motion (simple majority): Approve minutes of 27 April 2020 (below) 4. ODF Later issues (Preference to current TC members and cycling through their issues so no one is on the spot for all of them in a meeting), btw, limiting the search to open/deferred issues counts 134:
https://issues.oasis-open.org/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20OFFICE%20AND%20status%20in%20 (Open%2C%20Deferred)%20AND%20fixVersion%20in%20(%22ODF%201.4%22%2C%20ODF-Next)%20ORDER%20BY%20reporter%20ASC ) 5. Issues a. Update on request for ODF 1.4 templates b. Version control - suggestions? c. Style extraction and normalization d. 4.7 Empty Cell terminology A rather detailed discussion from Svante:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00011.html First response thus far: Andreas:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00012.html 6. Adjournment ***** Minutes from 4 May 2020 ********* anonymous morphed into Svante Svante morphed into Svante Schubert Svante Schubert: Good morning, everyone Patrick: Amended Agenda for 4 May 2020 ODF Teleconference 1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights 2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda 3. Motion (simple majority): Approve minutes of 27 April 2020 (below) 4. ODF Later issues (Preference to current TC members and cycling through their issues so no one is on the spot for all of them in a meeting), btw, limiting the search to open/deferred issues counts 134:
https://issues.oasis-open.org/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20OFFICE%20AND%20status%20in%20 (Open%2C%20Deferred)%20AND%20fixVersion%20in%20(%22ODF%201.4%22%2C%20ODF-Next)%20ORDER%20BY%20reporter%20ASC ) 5. Issues a. QNAME error in manifest schema Michael Stahl)
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202004/msg00016.html Now reads (incorrect) <rng:data type="QName"> <rngaram name="pattern">[^:[^</rngaram> </rng:data> Should read: <rng:data type="QName"> Correction (thanks Michael) <rngaram name="pattern">[^+:[^+</rngaram> </rng:data> Michael notes this is correct in the document schema but not here. I'll try to check with Chet before our meeting on correcting as editing error. Added: Chet reports we should file a request for errata, which will trigger him searching for an easier way to make this fix. (as per Patrick) b. 4.7 Empty Cell terminology Discussion since our last meeting: Proposal by Regina Henschel:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00000.html Response by Andreas Guelzow:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00001.html Response by Regina Henschel:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00002.html Responses by Andreas Guelzow:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00003.html https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00004.html Added: Comment by Svante Schubert -
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00006.html Added: Latest proposal by Regina (today):
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00008.html Added: 6: Holiday reminders for May 2020: No meeting May 18th - Queen Victoria No meeting May 25th - Memorial Day 7. Adjournment Start of today's meeting: Patrick: agenda - approved by consent Patrick: Minutes from 27 April 2020 - approved by consent Patrick: Oasis errata process -
https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/tc-process-2017-05-26#errata Patrick: Michael notes not an OASIS standard so errata process doesn't fit Patrick: Question becomes how to avoid creating a new specification in order to fix a schema error Patrick: Perhaps better, we don't have a light weight way to fix minor errors without a new specification - Patrick: heavy solution - new specification - alternative solution -- ask Chet- Patrick: Michael, if nothing faster, then do another specification - Patrick: Svante - need a flow chart of the defect process - defect report at a certain stage Patrick: Patrick - will have answer on process at least, perhaps not the chart, by 11 May meeting Patrick: Regina - empty cell proposal - latest
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00008.html Svante Schubert: Let me rephrase emptycell to has no cell value:
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part2.html#ISBLANK Patrick: Svante - empty string an empty value? - what is blank? cell without value? Patrick: Andreas - values are not specified as paragraphs - values are in attributes - if don't give a value, figure out from content - that's a problem Patrick: Andreas - problem is where there is no value specified - no value type, look at content to figure out what it is, don't know what empty paragraph means - it's an interpretation issue Patrick: Andreas - if applications don't agree what it means - Patrick: Svante - could say for ODF version - here is the semantic agreement Patrick: Andreas - what is proposed is don't do this - Patrick: From the proposal - second paragraph - It is implementation-dependent whether the markup <table:table-cell><text/></table:table-cell> is an "empty cell" or not. For interoperability producers should not write such markup, but add an office:value-type="string" attribute in case a cell with empty string is intended, or omit the empty child element <text/> in case an "empty cell" is intended. Patrick: minor correction: "for which non" to "for which none" Svante Schubert: I just looked into the ODF RelaxNG all XML nodes beyond table:table-cell are optional. Patrick: Svante, wants to work out the range of proposals - Patrick: Regina - spreadsheets also represent database data - makes a difference if exists as a field or exist and had not value - Patrick: Svante - what does the XML allow - Patrick: Defer to 11 May, Svante will file a more detailed proposal Patrick: Regina - empty cell equal to ISBLANK - cannot say from XML that cell is empty - can have chart-elements so not considered for formulas - cannot use only XML to describe it Patrick: Alfred - first create cell - it is not empty when creating a new sheet - Regina outlines the steps - used Office 365 Patrick: Regina - different value on re-opening than when editing (creation) Patrick: Alfred agrees - Patrick: Regina - need an overview over the tools to produce links - template for specification Patrick: Would want to have version for ODF 1.4 - so we can incorporate immediately - Patrick: Patrick - need to request templates from Chet for ODF 1.4 - Svante Schubert:
https://tdf.github.io/odftoolkit/docs/odf1.3/OpenDocument-v1.3-cs01-schema-rng.html Svante Schubert: This is an RNG (RelaxNG Grammar) as HTML with lnks Svante Schubert: links Patrick: That's clever! Andreas Guelzow: indeed Patrick: Michael - there was a subversion repository - Patrick: Svante - Github has many tools Michael Stahl: [svn-remote "svn"] url =
https://tools.oasis-open.org/version-control/svn/office Patrick: Regina - current specification is based on 1.1 - list styles - should update to more recent list styles - old paragraph and character styles - need a guide to the style in which situation Patrick: adjourned Patrick: roll - quorum - yes Patrick: Agenda approved by consent Patrick: Amend to say approve minutes of 5 May 2020 Patrick: 5 May 2020 -> 4 May 2020 Patrick: Consent to minutes of 4 May 2020 Patrick: 5.a. - will use latest version of Libre Office Patrick: 5.b - version control Patrick: Svante - want to use Github for the artifacts - wants to extract default value and to check against list - Patrick: Regina - go to Github as zip files? or each document a directory? Patrick: Michael - Jose was working on a way to diff the xml files Patrick: Alfred - use Github for file repository or show different versions of ODT files Patrick: Afred - change tracking in the ODT - Github for file respository and storage Patrick: Request - for Github respository - commit artifacts as ODT or schema as appropriate - public viewable - Patrick: c. Style extraction - and normalization Svante Schubert: In regard of 5.b: For instance, we should add the XSLT files that were being to create the ODF 1.3 HTML documents to this GitHub repro. Svante Schubert: Patrick says to 5.c: Inconsistent usage of styles Patrick: Regina - current problem there are styles - with same names but different - appendix heading and appendix heading with text Patrick: Francis - ODT - styles were applied have gone missing - default values - looking at the text and looking at the list of style - different spellings - and so on. Patrick: Francis - body:text - and direct formatting applied - Patrick: Francis - category of applied styles - can filter until those that have been applied - but not how often they are used - Svante Schubert: @Francis:
https://github.com/tdf/odftoolkit/tree/1.0.0_SNAPSHOT/odfdom Patrick: d. 4.7 Empty Cell terminology Michael Stahl: found an old mail by Jos "Subject: normalizing / cleaning up ODF files for use in revision control"
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/201508/msg00004.html Patrick:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/message.php/202005/msg00011.html Patrick: Andreas - there are certain states that should not exist - Patrick: Andreas - in last file - in that cell - 4 and 5 cases should not exist - no justification for cell with no type or where the type is void - where the cell contains empty or non-empty paragraphs - not clear what it means to a consumer, if there is text, it should be shown to the user - is text in cell, not "blank" Patrick: Andreas - would have to say should be read as content doesn't exist - treat as producer forgot the string type or put in content where it should not have. - Patrick: Svante - user adds content without knowing the complexity of the cell - not intuitive where everything is optional - for a future proposal - if there is content with no type - it should be string type - in a future version of ODF - 4 and 5 make no sense but are valid ODF and users might fall into that trap Patrick: Andreas - current standard only talks about a type - doesn't address the issue of where there is no type and there is content in the cell - a fix ought to address the whole problem - cell that appears to have content - Patrick: Regina - tables in text documents as well - in Word, have tables with no value type at all - save to ODT Patrick: Andreas - must make sense in spreadsheets - showing content and isBlank should go together Patrick: Svante - leaving type out is like saying void (present version) Patrick: Andreas - probably should say NOT legal to do - no value type - no content in the cell - Patrick: Regina - must define content to specify it's absence, such as an image that has no type Patrick: Andreas and Svante agree - define content - agreed Svante Schubert: Andreas said: We should define what content is. Svante Schubert: Andreas said: Not yet a proposal type of content and a) what isBlank is/does, but at the same time b) prohibit users creating content on emtpy cells Svante Schubert: ^content^"content" Svante Schubert: Regina stated: We have the dilemma of ODF text applications that are currently not using any data types. Svante Schubert: So these cells are by definition empty Patrick: adjourned -- Patrick Durusau
patrick@durusau.net Technical Advisory Board, OASIS (TAB) Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300 Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps) Another Word For It (blog):
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