Greetings! The chat notes from the ODF teleconference, 8 January 2018. Hope everyone is at the start of a great week! Patrick ******Chat notes****** anonymous morphed into Jos van den Oever Please change your name from 'anonymous' using the Settings button anonymous morphed into Patrick Jos van den Oever: Agenda ------ 1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights 2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda 3. Motion (simple majority): Notice of minutes from prior TC calls - pending 4. Meeting time for 2017-01-08 -
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2018&month=1&day=8&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=25&p2=37 5. Issues for Jan. 8, 2018: a.
https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-3897 OFFICE-3897 Extract ODF-only features missing from SVG, liaise with W3C about that b.
https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-3896 OFFICE-3896 Require svg support for linked and inline images 6. Next meeting: 2018-01-15. 7. Adjournment Jos van den Oever: Michael: what is happening to the forcearray parameters? Jos van den Oever: (this is added as initial item on the agenda) Jos van den Oever: before 5a Patrick:
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/201712/threads.html#00004 Jos van den Oever: regina suggests reading this thread ^ Jos van den Oever: agenda approved Jos van den Oever: Patrick: we're discussing if we should move ahead with forcearray changes Jos van den Oever: Andreas: the matter is not settled yet, by having an argument type of array, we know that that argument should be evaluated as an array Jos van den Oever: Regina: the problem i see, when you calculate without array context, you get a single value, which is also an array, because of the context Jos van den Oever: Andreas: is there an example of using an array without an array context? Jos van den Oever: Andreas: by having it as an argument as array type, we force an array context Patrick: Another example where ForceArray is used without Array is MODE( { ForceArray NumberSequence N }+ ) Jos van den Oever: Patrick: andreas: do you agree that that ForceArray on NumberSequence is acceptable? Jos van den Oever: since NumberSequence is not an array Jos van den Oever: ForceArray makes sense if arguments are not array Patrick: ROWS( Reference Array R ) Jos van den Oever: Patrick: If there is an alternative type (a choice of type), ForceArray would also be legitimate Jos van den Oever: So only in the case when the only datatype is array, that forcearray seems redundant Jos van den Oever: Regina: Is there such a function? Jos van den Oever: Andreas: I asked Eike but got no answer to the question Jos van den Oever: Andreas: if there were an example like this, then forcearray would be warranted Jos van den Oever: Patrick: i'm looking up the references, e.g. 6.13.30ROWS Jos van den Oever: ROWS( Reference Array R ) Jos van den Oever: Patrick: perhaps I do not know what array context means Regina Henschel: The LOOKUP-function have the same choice Reference Array. Jos van den Oever: Andreas: ROWS arguments are not evaluated in an array context. Jos van den Oever: Patrick: what does it do differently Jos van den Oever: Andreas: it would mean implicit intersection Andreas J Guelzow: =C4:D5+F4:G5 in array context is a 2 by 2 array Jos van den Oever: Andreas: in an array context it's a 2x2 array Jos van den Oever: Andreas: you would not get anything, because you cannot have rows and columns intersection at the same time Jos van den Oever: Andreas: So then it's an error Jos van den Oever: Andreas: so ROWS does not force an arrays context and I understand what Eike meant Jos van den Oever: Andreas: we need something to distinguish between forcing array context and not Jos van den Oever: Patrick: wasn't eike saying that ForceArray is supposed to do that Jos van den Oever: Andreas: Eike is right that we need to keep ForceArray to distinguish, and it's correct that it lacks in ROWS Regina Henschel:
https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-3902 Jos van den Oever: Regina: we should follow eike's proposal Regina Henschel:
https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-3905 Jos van den Oever: Patrick: is there consensus that we need a more explicit explanation? Jos van den Oever: Regina: we need another issue: first solve the issues where ForceArray is missing and then make an issue to add a better explanation in the specification Jos van den Oever: Regina: i've already started to think on a better explanation, but that has to wait until after fosdem for which I'm preparing a talk Jos van den Oever: Patrick: we will wait for that Jos van den Oever: Patrick: are there more comments on this topic? no? ok, now we have a good path forward Patrick:
https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-3897 Jos van den Oever: Patrick: this one was submitted by Thorsten Jos van den Oever: Regina: it sounds as a wish that we move from all draw shapes to svg Jos van den Oever: Regina: but that seems not possible, because draw: can have a text box, svg has no wrapping Jos van den Oever: Regina: in draw there is no fill and stroke on text Jos van den Oever: Regina: so moving totally to svg is not a good idea Jos van den Oever: Regina: in svg we'd have to add our own draw text as extention? is that what we want? Jos van den Oever: Patrick: doesn't svg 2 have wrapping? Jos van den Oever: Jos: I thought it stopped at svg 2 Jos van den Oever: Patrick: no, there's a recent update on it where wrapping is discussed Jos van den Oever: Regina: they've moved their working to github, so we can look there Patrick:
https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/ Jos van den Oever: Regina: There is a weekly digest to the svg mailing list. They are still working on the spec Jos van den Oever: GitHub link:
https://github.com/w3c/svgwg Jos van den Oever: Regina: there are other differences, e.g. draw transform does not work on stroke, but svg also transforms the stroke Jos van den Oever: Regina: in svg there is filling of non-closed shapes too Jos van den Oever: Regina: there are many cases where our way to draw the shapes would have to go into an svg extension element Jos van den Oever: Patrick: or we could suggest improvements to svg Regina Henschel:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Regina/Compare_SVG_to_Draw_and_ODF Jos van den Oever: Regina: I've collected some things on the wiki of the document foundation ^ Jos van den Oever: Regina: do we really want to change our draw shapes to svg? Jos van den Oever: Patrick: or offer it as alternative Jos van den Oever: Jos: we already allow adding SVG images, even inline Jos van den Oever: Patrick: the spec says that extentions should only be used if there is no alternative Jos van den Oever: Patrick: so only use svg when draw does not support what you want Jos van den Oever: Regina: as an external image svg is fine, inline svg is discouraged because it is an extension Jos van den Oever: Michael: what is the advantage of inline svg? Jos van den Oever: Jos: access for macros Jos van den Oever: Michael: for compatibility we cannot lose any draw functionality Jos van den Oever: Patrick: regina said 'use svg outside of a draw frame' what does that mean? Jos van den Oever: Regina: one could put svg elements in odf and then it's odf extended Jos van den Oever: Patrick: is there a difference in the content that i can have in an svg element depending on the location (in draw:frame or outside) Jos van den Oever: Regina: SVG can have an event handler Jos van den Oever: Patrick: we say vectors should be stored as svg, but draw:image only allows base64 content Jos van den Oever: Patrick: we might allow inline svg there Jos van den Oever: Regina: currently you put svg as a separate file Jos van den Oever: in the zip container Jos van den Oever: Regina: base64 is only needed in flat files Jos van den Oever: Meeting ajourned -- Patrick Durusau
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