OASIS XML Localisation Interchange File Format (XLIFF) TC

  • 1.  XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-18-2015 17:15
    The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows: " ID value X-NONE X-NONE   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native xml:id or id attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers." And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that. Please feel free to leave feedback or comments. Thank you in advance for your participation! Best, Soroush.  


  • 2.  Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-20-2015 20:41
    HI Soroush and all, Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >: The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows: ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native   xml:id   or   id   attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers. And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the   wiki page  mentions exceptions for very specific context... , would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that. There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.  Best, Felix  Please feel free to leave feedback or comments. Thank you in advance for your participation! Best, Soroush.  


  • 3.  RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-21-2015 11:24
    Dear Felix, Yves, Thanks for your help, your notes will be applied. Regards, Soroush. From: Felix Sasaki [felix@sasakiatcf.com] Sent: 20 December 2015 20:41 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value HI Soroush and all, Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >: The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows: " ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native   xml:id   or   id   attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers." And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the   wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that. There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.  Best, Felix  ________________________________________ From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [xliff@lists.oasis-open.org] on behalf of Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 19 December 2015 12:38 To: XLIFF Main List Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping- Elements within text Hi Soroush, More notes: -- 1) Several of the examples have "curly quotes" instead of normal ASCII double quotes to enclose attribute values. A side effect of editing in an email probably, but they need to be correct in the spec. -- 2) <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;br/&gt;</data>    </originalData>-->    <segment>       <source>This sentence has a breakpoint<ph id="ph1" dataRef="d1"               type="fmt" subType="xlf:lb"/>inside.       </source>    </segment> </unit> The example above has a dangling "-->" after </originalData>. -- 3) <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;u&gt;</data>       <data id="d2">&lt;/u&gt;</data>    </originalData>    <segment>       <source>A paragraph where <sc id="sc1" dataRef="d1" type="fmt"               subType="xlf:u"/>the formatted text takes more than one               segment.       </source>    </segment>    <segment>       <source> The second sentence here.<ec dataRef="d2"               startRef="sc1"/>       </source>    </segment> </unit> In the example above, the <ec/> element seems to be missing the attributes type="fmt" and subType="xlf:u". Now, the Okapi validator gives an error on this, but I don't see in the spec any constraint that says type and subType must have the same values in two corresponding <sc/> and <ec/>. That constraint exists only for canCopy, canDelete and canOverlap. I don't see anywhere either that the processor should magically complement the undefined attributes in <ec/> by looking at the corresponding <sc/>. At the same time, obviously, it would be illogical to have different values. Are we missing yet another "implicit" constraint? Cheers, -yves --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php


  • 4.  RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-21-2015 12:00
    Hi Soroush, all,   On a related topic of IDs in XLIFF.   Could you give me your opinion on the test file I posted here: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/201512/msg00011/test-file.xlf   The question is: Is it valid to have the same id="1" ID in the two <pc> elements present in that file. What is your validator results for that file?   Thanks, -yves     From: Soroush.Saadatfar [mailto:Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 4:24 AM To: Felix Sasaki <felix@sasakiatcf.com>; Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   Dear Felix, Yves, Thanks for your help, your notes will be applied.   Regards, Soroush.   From: Felix Sasaki [felix@sasakiatcf.com] Sent: 20 December 2015 20:41 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value HI Soroush and all,   Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >:   The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows:   " ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native   xml:id   or   id   attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers."   And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the   wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that.       There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.    Best,   Felix        ________________________________________ From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [xliff@lists.oasis-open.org] on behalf of Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 19 December 2015 12:38 To: XLIFF Main List Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping- Elements within text   Hi Soroush,   More notes:   -- 1)   Several of the examples have "curly quotes" instead of normal ASCII double quotes to enclose attribute values. A side effect of editing in an email probably, but they need to be correct in the spec.     -- 2)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;br/&gt;</data>    </originalData>-->    <segment>       <source>This sentence has a breakpoint<ph id="ph1" dataRef="d1"               type="fmt" subType="xlf:lb"/>inside.       </source>    </segment> </unit>   The example above has a dangling "-->" after </originalData>.     -- 3)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;u&gt;</data>       <data id="d2">&lt;/u&gt;</data>    </originalData>    <segment>       <source>A paragraph where <sc id="sc1" dataRef="d1" type="fmt"               subType="xlf:u"/>the formatted text takes more than one               segment.       </source>    </segment>    <segment>       <source> The second sentence here.<ec dataRef="d2"               startRef="sc1"/>       </source>    </segment> </unit>   In the example above, the <ec/> element seems to be missing the attributes type="fmt" and subType="xlf:u".   Now, the Okapi validator gives an error on this, but I don't see in the spec any constraint that says type and subType must have the same values in two corresponding <sc/> and <ec/>. That constraint exists only for canCopy, canDelete and canOverlap.   I don't see anywhere either that the processor should magically complement the undefined attributes in <ec/> by looking at the corresponding <sc/>. At the same time, obviously, it would be illogical to have different values.   Are we missing yet another "implicit" constraint?     Cheers, -yves       --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php  


  • 5.  RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-21-2015 12:42
    The validator raises three errors;  1- Missing element with id="m1" to which the <mtc:match ... ref="#m1"> element is pointing (not in scope of this conversation); 2 & 3- ID duplication for both <pc> in <mtc:match>. Seems like a tricky case, but I think it would make sense to treat <source>/<target> pairs in translate candidates along with those in <segment> or <ignorable> within the same <unit>.  As <source> and <target> are both core elements even inside a module, according to the Spec inline elements inside them must have unique ids. Therefore even if the TC decides otherwise the text of Spec then should be modified. Using the NVDL's logic of breaking XML document by namespaces, <source> and <target>, children of <mtc:match>, will remain in the context of <unit> after  omission of "mtc:" namespace. P.S. I assume my validator might need some editing for this case anyway, thanks! Best, Soroush.     From: Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 21 December 2015 12:00 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value Hi Soroush, all,   On a related topic of IDs in XLIFF.   Could you give me your opinion on the test file I posted here: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/201512/msg00011/test-file.xlf   The question is: Is it valid to have the same id="1" ID in the two <pc> elements present in that file. What is your validator results for that file?   Thanks, -yves     From: Soroush.Saadatfar [mailto:Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 4:24 AM To: Felix Sasaki <felix@sasakiatcf.com>; Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   Dear Felix, Yves, Thanks for your help, your notes will be applied.   Regards, Soroush.   From: Felix Sasaki [felix@sasakiatcf.com] Sent: 20 December 2015 20:41 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value HI Soroush and all,   Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >:   The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows:   " ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native   xml:id   or   id   attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers."   And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the   wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that.       There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.    Best,   Felix        ________________________________________ From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [xliff@lists.oasis-open.org] on behalf of Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 19 December 2015 12:38 To: XLIFF Main List Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping- Elements within text   Hi Soroush,   More notes:   -- 1)   Several of the examples have "curly quotes" instead of normal ASCII double quotes to enclose attribute values. A side effect of editing in an email probably, but they need to be correct in the spec.     -- 2)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;br/&gt;</data>    </originalData>-->    <segment>       <source>This sentence has a breakpoint<ph id="ph1" dataRef="d1"               type="fmt" subType="xlf:lb"/>inside.       </source>    </segment> </unit>   The example above has a dangling "-->" after </originalData>.     -- 3)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;u&gt;</data>       <data id="d2">&lt;/u&gt;</data>    </originalData>    <segment>       <source>A paragraph where <sc id="sc1" dataRef="d1" type="fmt"               subType="xlf:u"/>the formatted text takes more than one               segment.       </source>    </segment>    <segment>       <source> The second sentence here.<ec dataRef="d2"               startRef="sc1"/>       </source>    </segment> </unit>   In the example above, the <ec/> element seems to be missing the attributes type="fmt" and subType="xlf:u".   Now, the Okapi validator gives an error on this, but I don't see in the spec any constraint that says type and subType must have the same values in two corresponding <sc/> and <ec/>. That constraint exists only for canCopy, canDelete and canOverlap.   I don't see anywhere either that the processor should magically complement the undefined attributes in <ec/> by looking at the corresponding <sc/>. At the same time, obviously, it would be illogical to have different values.   Are we missing yet another "implicit" constraint?     Cheers, -yves       --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php  


  • 6.  RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-21-2015 14:00
    Thanks for testing Soroush.   Interesting first error: the Okapi checker doesn’t get that one.   There is an "m1" identifier inside that unit: on the segment rather than on an mrk. From the fragment identifier syntax there is no way to know if #m1 is a segment or an mrk or a pc, etc. so that makes the validation a bit difficult (at least the way Okapi stores the parsed info about IDs).   Just to be sure: Did we decided against using a shortcut to the segment for the Translation Candidate annotation? The specification does not say anything explicit about not being able to use <segment>.   I’ll come back for the other errors later.   -ys       From: Soroush.Saadatfar [mailto:Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 5:41 AM To: Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   The validator raises three errors;  1- Missing element with id="m1" to which the <mtc:match ... ref="#m1"> element is pointing (not in scope of this conversation); 2 & 3- ID duplication for both <pc> in <mtc:match>.   Seems like a tricky case, but I think it would make sense to treat <source>/<target> pairs in translate candidates along with those in <segment> or <ignorable> within the same <unit>. As <source> and <target> are both core elements even inside a module, according to the Spec inline elements inside them must have unique ids. Therefore even if the TC decides otherwise the text of Spec then should be modified. Using the NVDL's logic of breaking XML document by namespaces, <source> and <target>, children of <mtc:match>, will remain in the context of <unit> after omission of "mtc:" namespace.   P.S. I assume my validator might need some editing for this case anyway, thanks!   Best, Soroush.     From: Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 21 December 2015 12:00 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value Hi Soroush, all,   On a related topic of IDs in XLIFF.   Could you give me your opinion on the test file I posted here: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/201512/msg00011/test-file.xlf   The question is: Is it valid to have the same id="1" ID in the two <pc> elements present in that file. What is your validator results for that file?   Thanks, -yves     From: Soroush.Saadatfar [ mailto:Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie ] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 4:24 AM To: Felix Sasaki < felix@sasakiatcf.com >; Yves Savourel < ysavourel@enlaso.com > Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   Dear Felix, Yves, Thanks for your help, your notes will be applied.   Regards, Soroush.   From: Felix Sasaki [felix@sasakiatcf.com] Sent: 20 December 2015 20:41 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value HI Soroush and all,   Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >:   The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows:   " ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native   xml:id   or   id   attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers."   And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the   wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that.       There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.    Best,   Felix        ________________________________________ From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [xliff@lists.oasis-open.org] on behalf of Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 19 December 2015 12:38 To: XLIFF Main List Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping- Elements within text   Hi Soroush,   More notes:   -- 1)   Several of the examples have "curly quotes" instead of normal ASCII double quotes to enclose attribute values. A side effect of editing in an email probably, but they need to be correct in the spec.     -- 2)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;br/&gt;</data>    </originalData>-->    <segment>       <source>This sentence has a breakpoint<ph id="ph1" dataRef="d1"               type="fmt" subType="xlf:lb"/>inside.       </source>    </segment> </unit>   The example above has a dangling "-->" after </originalData>.     -- 3)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;u&gt;</data>       <data id="d2">&lt;/u&gt;</data>    </originalData>    <segment>       <source>A paragraph where <sc id="sc1" dataRef="d1" type="fmt"               subType="xlf:u"/>the formatted text takes more than one               segment.       </source>    </segment>    <segment>       <source> The second sentence here.<ec dataRef="d2"               startRef="sc1"/>       </source>    </segment> </unit>   In the example above, the <ec/> element seems to be missing the attributes type="fmt" and subType="xlf:u".   Now, the Okapi validator gives an error on this, but I don't see in the spec any constraint that says type and subType must have the same values in two corresponding <sc/> and <ec/>. That constraint exists only for canCopy, canDelete and canOverlap.   I don't see anywhere either that the processor should magically complement the undefined attributes in <ec/> by looking at the corresponding <sc/>. At the same time, obviously, it would be illogical to have different values.   Are we missing yet another "implicit" constraint?     Cheers, -yves       --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php  


  • 7.  RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-21-2015 14:24
    The ref attribute is defined in the Spec as follows:   " points to a span of source text within the same unit...", so I took it as inline elements only (I think because most of the available examples use them) by mistake. I will note this correction in the next version of artefacts as well, thanks alot! I would like to use the opportunity to ask all members of the list to share validation cases they come across for further troubleshooting. Regards, Soroush.  From: Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 21 December 2015 13:59 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value Thanks for testing Soroush.   Interesting first error: the Okapi checker doesn’t get that one.   There is an "m1" identifier inside that unit: on the segment rather than on an mrk. From the fragment identifier syntax there is no way to know if #m1 is a segment or an mrk or a pc, etc. so that makes the validation a bit difficult (at least the way Okapi stores the parsed info about IDs).   Just to be sure: Did we decided against using a shortcut to the segment for the Translation Candidate annotation? The specification does not say anything explicit about not being able to use <segment>.   I’ll come back for the other errors later.   -ys       From: Soroush.Saadatfar [mailto:Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 5:41 AM To: Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   The validator raises three errors;  1- Missing element with id="m1" to which the <mtc:match ... ref="#m1"> element is pointing (not in scope of this conversation); 2 & 3- ID duplication for both <pc> in <mtc:match>.   Seems like a tricky case, but I think it would make sense to treat <source>/<target> pairs in translate candidates along with those in <segment> or <ignorable> within the same <unit>. As <source> and <target> are both core elements even inside a module, according to the Spec inline elements inside them must have unique ids. Therefore even if the TC decides otherwise the text of Spec then should be modified. Using the NVDL's logic of breaking XML document by namespaces, <source> and <target>, children of <mtc:match>, will remain in the context of <unit> after omission of "mtc:" namespace.   P.S. I assume my validator might need some editing for this case anyway, thanks!   Best, Soroush.     From: Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 21 December 2015 12:00 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value Hi Soroush, all,   On a related topic of IDs in XLIFF.   Could you give me your opinion on the test file I posted here: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/201512/msg00011/test-file.xlf   The question is: Is it valid to have the same id="1" ID in the two <pc> elements present in that file. What is your validator results for that file?   Thanks, -yves     From: Soroush.Saadatfar [ mailto:Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie ] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 4:24 AM To: Felix Sasaki < felix@sasakiatcf.com >; Yves Savourel < ysavourel@enlaso.com > Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   Dear Felix, Yves, Thanks for your help, your notes will be applied.   Regards, Soroush.   From: Felix Sasaki [felix@sasakiatcf.com] Sent: 20 December 2015 20:41 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value HI Soroush and all,   Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >:   The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows:   " ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native   xml:id   or   id   attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers."   And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the   wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that.       There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.    Best,   Felix        ________________________________________ From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [xliff@lists.oasis-open.org] on behalf of Yves Savourel [ysavourel@enlaso.com] Sent: 19 December 2015 12:38 To: XLIFF Main List Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping- Elements within text   Hi Soroush,   More notes:   -- 1)   Several of the examples have "curly quotes" instead of normal ASCII double quotes to enclose attribute values. A side effect of editing in an email probably, but they need to be correct in the spec.     -- 2)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;br/&gt;</data>    </originalData>-->    <segment>       <source>This sentence has a breakpoint<ph id="ph1" dataRef="d1"               type="fmt" subType="xlf:lb"/>inside.       </source>    </segment> </unit>   The example above has a dangling "-->" after </originalData>.     -- 3)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;u&gt;</data>       <data id="d2">&lt;/u&gt;</data>    </originalData>    <segment>       <source>A paragraph where <sc id="sc1" dataRef="d1" type="fmt"               subType="xlf:u"/>the formatted text takes more than one               segment.       </source>    </segment>    <segment>       <source> The second sentence here.<ec dataRef="d2"               startRef="sc1"/>       </source>    </segment> </unit>   In the example above, the <ec/> element seems to be missing the attributes type="fmt" and subType="xlf:u".   Now, the Okapi validator gives an error on this, but I don't see in the spec any constraint that says type and subType must have the same values in two corresponding <sc/> and <ec/>. That constraint exists only for canCopy, canDelete and canOverlap.   I don't see anywhere either that the processor should magically complement the undefined attributes in <ec/> by looking at the corresponding <sc/>. At the same time, obviously, it would be illogical to have different values.   Are we missing yet another "implicit" constraint?     Cheers, -yves       --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php  


  • 8.  Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-21-2015 14:38
    Soroush, Yves, we did not decide against using segment ids. Segment ids are in the same uniqueness pool as inlines, they're are classified as structural but are mutable and marking a span within a unit. So the schematron based validator should not call this out as an error and Lynz behavior is correct. Cheers dF Dr. David Filip =========== OASIS XLIFF OMOS TC Chair OASIS XLIFF TC Secretary, Editor, Liaison Officer Spokes Research Fellow ADAPT Centre KDEG, Trinity College Dublin Mobile: +420-777-218-122 On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie > wrote: The ref attribute is defined in the Spec as follows:   " points to a span of source text within the same unit...", so I took it as inline elements only (I think because most of the available examples use them) by mistake. I will note this correction in the next version of artefacts as well, thanks alot! I would like to use the opportunity to ask all members of the list to share validation cases they come across for further troubleshooting. Regards, Soroush.  From: Yves Savourel [ ysavourel@enlaso.com ] Sent: 21 December 2015 13:59 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value Thanks for testing Soroush.   Interesting first error: the Okapi checker doesn’t get that one.   There is an "m1" identifier inside that unit: on the segment rather than on an mrk. From the fragment identifier syntax there is no way to know if #m1 is a segment or an mrk or a pc, etc. so that makes the validation a bit difficult (at least the way Okapi stores the parsed info about IDs).   Just to be sure: Did we decided against using a shortcut to the segment for the Translation Candidate annotation? The specification does not say anything explicit about not being able to use <segment>.   I’ll come back for the other errors later.   -ys       From: Soroush.Saadatfar [mailto: Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie ] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 5:41 AM To: Yves Savourel < ysavourel@enlaso.com > Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   The validator raises three errors;  1- Missing element with id="m1" to which the <mtc:match ... ref="#m1"> element is pointing (not in scope of this conversation); 2 & 3- ID duplication for both <pc> in <mtc:match>.   Seems like a tricky case, but I think it would make sense to treat <source>/<target> pairs in translate candidates along with those in <segment> or <ignorable> within the same <unit>. As <source> and <target> are both core elements even inside a module, according to the Spec inline elements inside them must have unique ids. Therefore even if the TC decides otherwise the text of Spec then should be modified. Using the NVDL's logic of breaking XML document by namespaces, <source> and <target>, children of <mtc:match>, will remain in the context of <unit> after omission of "mtc:" namespace.   P.S. I assume my validator might need some editing for this case anyway, thanks!   Best, Soroush.     From: Yves Savourel [ ysavourel@enlaso.com ] Sent: 21 December 2015 12:00 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value Hi Soroush, all,   On a related topic of IDs in XLIFF.   Could you give me your opinion on the test file I posted here: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/201512/msg00011/test-file.xlf   The question is: Is it valid to have the same id="1" ID in the two <pc> elements present in that file. What is your validator results for that file?   Thanks, -yves     From: Soroush.Saadatfar [ mailto:Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie ] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 4:24 AM To: Felix Sasaki < felix@sasakiatcf.com >; Yves Savourel < ysavourel@enlaso.com > Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   Dear Felix, Yves, Thanks for your help, your notes will be applied.   Regards, Soroush.   From: Felix Sasaki [ felix@sasakiatcf.com ] Sent: 20 December 2015 20:41 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value HI Soroush and all,   Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >:   The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows:   " ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native   xml:id   or   id   attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers."   And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the   wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that.       There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.    Best,   Felix        ________________________________________ From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [ xliff@lists.oasis-open.org ] on behalf of Yves Savourel [ ysavourel@enlaso.com ] Sent: 19 December 2015 12:38 To: XLIFF Main List Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping- Elements within text   Hi Soroush,   More notes:   -- 1)   Several of the examples have "curly quotes" instead of normal ASCII double quotes to enclose attribute values. A side effect of editing in an email probably, but they need to be correct in the spec.     -- 2)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;br/&gt;</data>    </originalData>-->    <segment>       <source>This sentence has a breakpoint<ph id="ph1" dataRef="d1"               type="fmt" subType="xlf:lb"/>inside.       </source>    </segment> </unit>   The example above has a dangling "-->" after </originalData>.     -- 3)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;u&gt;</data>       <data id="d2">&lt;/u&gt;</data>    </originalData>    <segment>       <source>A paragraph where <sc id="sc1" dataRef="d1" type="fmt"               subType="xlf:u"/>the formatted text takes more than one               segment.       </source>    </segment>    <segment>       <source> The second sentence here.<ec dataRef="d2"               startRef="sc1"/>       </source>    </segment> </unit>   In the example above, the <ec/> element seems to be missing the attributes type="fmt" and subType="xlf:u".   Now, the Okapi validator gives an error on this, but I don't see in the spec any constraint that says type and subType must have the same values in two corresponding <sc/> and <ec/>. That constraint exists only for canCopy, canDelete and canOverlap.   I don't see anywhere either that the processor should magically complement the undefined attributes in <ec/> by looking at the corresponding <sc/>. At the same time, obviously, it would be illogical to have different values.   Are we missing yet another "implicit" constraint?     Cheers, -yves       --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php  


  • 9.  Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-21-2015 14:45
    On the duplication of span id's in the candidates module, I agree with the NVDL interpretation. Although nested within mtc,:the core span id's are within the same unit, so should not be allowed to duplicate ids of not nested core spans. Cheers dF  Dr. David Filip =========== OASIS XLIFF OMOS TC Chair OASIS XLIFF TC Secretary, Editor, Liaison Officer Spokes Research Fellow ADAPT Centre KDEG, Trinity College Dublin Mobile: +420-777-218-122 On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie > wrote: The validator raises three errors;  1- Missing element with id="m1" to which the <mtc:match ... ref="#m1"> element is pointing (not in scope of this conversation); 2 & 3- ID duplication for both <pc> in <mtc:match>. Seems like a tricky case, but I think it would make sense to treat <source>/<target> pairs in translate candidates along with those in <segment> or <ignorable> within the same <unit>.  As <source> and <target> are both core elements even inside a module, according to the Spec inline elements inside them must have unique ids. Therefore even if the TC decides otherwise the text of Spec then should be modified. Using the NVDL's logic of breaking XML document by namespaces, <source> and <target>, children of <mtc:match>, will remain in the context of <unit> after  omission of "mtc:" namespace. P.S. I assume my validator might need some editing for this case anyway, thanks! Best, Soroush.     From: Yves Savourel [ ysavourel@enlaso.com ] Sent: 21 December 2015 12:00 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value Hi Soroush, all,   On a related topic of IDs in XLIFF.   Could you give me your opinion on the test file I posted here: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/201512/msg00011/test-file.xlf   The question is: Is it valid to have the same id="1" ID in the two <pc> elements present in that file. What is your validator results for that file?   Thanks, -yves     From: Soroush.Saadatfar [mailto: Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie ] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 4:24 AM To: Felix Sasaki < felix@sasakiatcf.com >; Yves Savourel < ysavourel@enlaso.com > Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   Dear Felix, Yves, Thanks for your help, your notes will be applied.   Regards, Soroush.   From: Felix Sasaki [ felix@sasakiatcf.com ] Sent: 20 December 2015 20:41 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value HI Soroush and all,   Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >:   The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows:   " ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native   xml:id   or   id   attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers."   And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the   wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that.       There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.    Best,   Felix        ________________________________________ From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [ xliff@lists.oasis-open.org ] on behalf of Yves Savourel [ ysavourel@enlaso.com ] Sent: 19 December 2015 12:38 To: XLIFF Main List Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping- Elements within text   Hi Soroush,   More notes:   -- 1)   Several of the examples have "curly quotes" instead of normal ASCII double quotes to enclose attribute values. A side effect of editing in an email probably, but they need to be correct in the spec.     -- 2)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;br/&gt;</data>    </originalData>-->    <segment>       <source>This sentence has a breakpoint<ph id="ph1" dataRef="d1"               type="fmt" subType="xlf:lb"/>inside.       </source>    </segment> </unit>   The example above has a dangling "-->" after </originalData>.     -- 3)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;u&gt;</data>       <data id="d2">&lt;/u&gt;</data>    </originalData>    <segment>       <source>A paragraph where <sc id="sc1" dataRef="d1" type="fmt"               subType="xlf:u"/>the formatted text takes more than one               segment.       </source>    </segment>    <segment>       <source> The second sentence here.<ec dataRef="d2"               startRef="sc1"/>       </source>    </segment> </unit>   In the example above, the <ec/> element seems to be missing the attributes type="fmt" and subType="xlf:u".   Now, the Okapi validator gives an error on this, but I don't see in the spec any constraint that says type and subType must have the same values in two corresponding <sc/> and <ec/>. That constraint exists only for canCopy, canDelete and canOverlap.   I don't see anywhere either that the processor should magically complement the undefined attributes in <ec/> by looking at the corresponding <sc/>. At the same time, obviously, it would be illogical to have different values.   Are we missing yet another "implicit" constraint?     Cheers, -yves       --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php  


  • 10.  RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value

    Posted 12-21-2015 15:42
    That was my interpretation of the uniqueness of IDs for the inline codes. (Although Okapi doesn’t seem to be catching those duplication cases)   The problem is that it brings a rather big issue: technically we can’t represent exact matches.   If no content in an mtc:match can have its inline codes with the same ID as in the source, they cannot ever have the same content. Furthermore, it’s impossible to be sure how to map correctly a content when applying a match: since the IDs should be different by this interpretation, you can’t know which one corresponds to which one when leveraging.   The same problem will exist for the Change Tracking module.   It seems to be something that need a resolution soon.   -ys   From: David Filip [mailto:david.filip@adaptcentre.ie] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 7:44 AM To: Soroush.Saadatfar <Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie> Cc: Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com>; xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   On the duplication of span id's in the candidates module, I agree with the NVDL interpretation. Although nested within mtc,:the core span id's are within the same unit, so should not be allowed to duplicate ids of not nested core spans.   Cheers dF  Dr. David Filip =========== OASIS XLIFF OMOS TC Chair OASIS XLIFF TC Secretary, Editor, Liaison Officer Spokes Research Fellow ADAPT Centre KDEG, Trinity College Dublin Mobile: +420-777-218-122     On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie > wrote: The validator raises three errors;  1- Missing element with id="m1" to which the <mtc:match ... ref="#m1"> element is pointing (not in scope of this conversation); 2 & 3- ID duplication for both <pc> in <mtc:match>.   Seems like a tricky case, but I think it would make sense to treat <source>/<target> pairs in translate candidates along with those in <segment> or <ignorable> within the same <unit>. As <source> and <target> are both core elements even inside a module, according to the Spec inline elements inside them must have unique ids. Therefore even if the TC decides otherwise the text of Spec then should be modified. Using the NVDL's logic of breaking XML document by namespaces, <source> and <target>, children of <mtc:match>, will remain in the context of <unit> after omission of "mtc:" namespace.   P.S. I assume my validator might need some editing for this case anyway, thanks!   Best, Soroush.     From: Yves Savourel [ ysavourel@enlaso.com ] Sent: 21 December 2015 12:00 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   Hi Soroush, all,   On a related topic of IDs in XLIFF.   Could you give me your opinion on the test file I posted here: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xliff/201512/msg00011/test-file.xlf   The question is: Is it valid to have the same id="1" ID in the two <pc> elements present in that file. What is your validator results for that file?   Thanks, -yves     From: Soroush.Saadatfar [mailto: Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie ] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 4:24 AM To: Felix Sasaki < felix@sasakiatcf.com >; Yves Savourel < ysavourel@enlaso.com > Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value   Dear Felix, Yves, Thanks for your help, your notes will be applied.   Regards, Soroush.   From: Felix Sasaki [ felix@sasakiatcf.com ] Sent: 20 December 2015 20:41 To: Soroush.Saadatfar Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping-ID value HI Soroush and all,   Am 18.12.2015 um 18:14 schrieb Soroush.Saadatfar < Soroush.Saadatfar@ul.ie >:   The spec text for ID value data category of ITS is offered as follows:   " ID value   This data category provides a mechanism to build customized unique identifiers for different parts of the document. It is generally recommended to use native  xml:id  or  id  attributes for XML and HTML documents respectively. As XLIFF 2.1 identifiers are not unique in the scope of the entire document, this data category should be avoided where possible and replaced by native XLIFF identifiers."   And I have a question with regards to the example. The current text in the  wiki page  mentions "exceptions for very specific context...", would you please provide a particular case? I don't think the current example on wiki is that.       There is no example because as the wiki says: „Note that the identifiers in XLIFF are not unique per document, so using the Id Value data category to specify IDs in an XLIFF document is largely useless“. So I would leave this as as, without an example about such contexts.    Best,   Felix        ________________________________________ From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [ xliff@lists.oasis-open.org ] on behalf of Yves Savourel [ ysavourel@enlaso.com ] Sent: 19 December 2015 12:38 To: XLIFF Main List Subject: RE: [xliff] XLIFF and ITS mapping- Elements within text   Hi Soroush,   More notes:   -- 1)   Several of the examples have "curly quotes" instead of normal ASCII double quotes to enclose attribute values. A side effect of editing in an email probably, but they need to be correct in the spec.     -- 2)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;br/&gt;</data>    </originalData>-->    <segment>       <source>This sentence has a breakpoint<ph id="ph1" dataRef="d1"               type="fmt" subType="xlf:lb"/>inside.       </source>    </segment> </unit>   The example above has a dangling "-->" after </originalData>.     -- 3)   <unit id="u1">    <originalData>       <data id="d1">&lt;u&gt;</data>       <data id="d2">&lt;/u&gt;</data>    </originalData>    <segment>       <source>A paragraph where <sc id="sc1" dataRef="d1" type="fmt"               subType="xlf:u"/>the formatted text takes more than one               segment.       </source>    </segment>    <segment>       <source> The second sentence here.<ec dataRef="d2"               startRef="sc1"/>       </source>    </segment> </unit>   In the example above, the <ec/> element seems to be missing the attributes type="fmt" and subType="xlf:u".   Now, the Okapi validator gives an error on this, but I don't see in the spec any constraint that says type and subType must have the same values in two corresponding <sc/> and <ec/>. That constraint exists only for canCopy, canDelete and canOverlap.   I don't see anywhere either that the processor should magically complement the undefined attributes in <ec/> by looking at the corresponding <sc/>. At the same time, obviously, it would be illogical to have different values.   Are we missing yet another "implicit" constraint?     Cheers, -yves       --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php