OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

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Two JIRA Issues for discussion

  • 1.  Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 15:30
    Hi
    
    there are two JIRA issues I'd like to discuss in the next TC meeting:
    
    1) http://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/OFFICE-2215
    
    The question here is whether or not we want to switch to XSD as schema
    language for the digital signature schema.
    
    
    2) http://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/OFFICE-2214
    
    The question here is whether we want to make changes to the RNG schema
    right now, or for ODF-Next.
    
    We actually got a contribution for an ODF schema for part 1 that does 
    not use the "combine" attribute:
    
    http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/201002/msg00022.html
    
    However, changing the schema in the last minute of cause has some risks. 
    The current schema is well tested, and while there have been changes for 
    ODF 1.2, it is in use since ODF 1.0.
    
    So, maybe, we should just switch to a new schema structure as first 
    action for ODF 1.3/2.0 rather than the last one for ODF 1.2?
    
    Michael
    
    
    -- 
    Michael Brauer, Technical Architect Software Engineering
    StarOffice/OpenOffice.org
    Sun Microsystems GmbH             Nagelsweg 55
    D-20097 Hamburg, Germany          michael.brauer@sun.com
    http://sun.com/staroffice         +49 40 23646 500
    http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
    
    Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
    	   D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten
    Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
    Geschaeftsfuehrer: Thomas Schroeder, Wolfgang Engels
    Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering
    
    


  • 2.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 16:19
    Michael,
    
    Switching the schema is a big step but I assume that there are tools to 
    measure formal equivalence of schemas?
    
    I haven't looked, therefore the question.
    
    If there were some assurance other than "eye balling" the two schemas, I 
    would feel more confident about a last minute change.
    
    Hope you are looking forward to a great weekend!
    
    Patrick
    
    Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg wrote:
    > Hi
    >
    > there are two JIRA issues I'd like to discuss in the next TC meeting:
    >
    > 1) http://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/OFFICE-2215
    >
    > The question here is whether or not we want to switch to XSD as schema
    > language for the digital signature schema.
    >
    >
    > 2) http://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/OFFICE-2214
    >
    > The question here is whether we want to make changes to the RNG schema
    > right now, or for ODF-Next.
    >
    > We actually got a contribution for an ODF schema for part 1 that does 
    > not use the "combine" attribute:
    >
    > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/201002/msg00022.html
    >
    > However, changing the schema in the last minute of cause has some 
    > risks. The current schema is well tested, and while there have been 
    > changes for ODF 1.2, it is in use since ODF 1.0.
    >
    > So, maybe, we should just switch to a new schema structure as first 
    > action for ODF 1.3/2.0 rather than the last one for ODF 1.2?
    >
    > Michael
    >
    >
    
    -- 
    Patrick Durusau
    patrick@durusau.net
    Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
    Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
    Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300
    Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps) 
    
    


  • 3.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 16:37
    On 19 February 2010 16:19, Patrick Durusau 


  • 4.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 16:58
    Dave,
    
    Hasn't there been some work on creating abstract representations of 
    schemas? For comparison purposes?
    
    I will look for it over the weekend but for some reason I think there is 
    something other than Trang (which is really cool) that might fit the bill.
    
    But thanks for the reminder about Trang. Fairly sure what work there is 
    would have cited it as other work or as a reference.
    
    Hope you are looking forward to a great weekend!
    
    Patrick
    
    Dave Pawson wrote:
    > On 19 February 2010 16:19, Patrick Durusau 


  • 5.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 20:07
    My sense of this is that we have done something very strange.
    
    In Part 3, there is a standalone RNG schema for an XML document that has an ODF Dsigs list as its root element.  The only element in the content of this root element is one more W3Cdsig:dsig elements (that is, W3C XML DSigs).
    
    Because the trivial root element is specified in RNG, we have the problem that we have chosen to have no schema for the W3Cdsig:dsig XML element, and we allow any content on that element instead.  (And it is done in an ugly way, but I won't go into that.  I will point out that IS 29500 offers both Relax NG and XML Schema schemas and they seem to have found some sort of transliteration that preserves the schematic essence in both directions.)
    
    Clearly, a way to have a precise specification would be to have this trivial standalone XML document schema be done in XML Schema in the first place.  Then it can incorporate W3Cdsig:dsig by reference to the XML Schema for it.  
    
    Alternatively, get rid of the multi-signature wrapper (not sure what value it is since any number of separate signature files are permitted and a component of the multi-signature wrapper will have a hard time self-signing without screwing something up), and simply allow dsig:dsig (W3C dsig binding) root elements on the ODF 1.2 Part 3 digital signature documents.
    
    Short-term problem solved either way.  Choose your poison.  
    
    There is a lot more needed to have ODF 1.2 DSig be well-specified.  With the schema resolved, we might turn our attention to that more substantial matter of how XML Dsig is profiled for ODF 1.2.  (The original proposal accepted by the ODF TC over a year ago is somehow not reflected in ODF 1.2 Part 3 and ODF 1.2 Part 1 anywhere.  There was a lot more profiling of XML DSig that someone thought was important, and that the TC accepted, and now it is nowhere to be seen.)
    
     - Dennis
    
    
    
    


  • 6.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 20:29
    And emphasize XAdES (ETSI TS 101 903) 
    (1.2 part 3 mentions it briefly in a note, "may implement", I'd rather make that a "should")
    
    At least in Europe, governments really want to have XAdES implemented
    (and we're issuing millions of eID cards for filling out tax forms and legally sign documents)
    
    
    Best regards,
    
    Bart
    
    ________________________________________
    From: Dennis E. Hamilton [dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
    Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 9:06 PM
    To: 'Dave Pawson'; 'Patrick Durusau'
    Cc: 'Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg'; office@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion
    
    My sense of this is that we have done something very strange.
    
    In Part 3, there is a standalone RNG schema for an XML document that has an ODF Dsigs list as its root element.  The only element in the content of this root element is one more W3Cdsig:dsig elements (that is, W3C XML DSigs).
    
    Because the trivial root element is specified in RNG, we have the problem that we have chosen to have no schema for the W3Cdsig:dsig XML element, and we allow any content on that element instead.  (And it is done in an ugly way, but I won't go into that.  I will point out that IS 29500 offers both Relax NG and XML Schema schemas and they seem to have found some sort of transliteration that preserves the schematic essence in both directions.)
    
    Clearly, a way to have a precise specification would be to have this trivial standalone XML document schema be done in XML Schema in the first place.  Then it can incorporate W3Cdsig:dsig by reference to the XML Schema for it.
    
    Alternatively, get rid of the multi-signature wrapper (not sure what value it is since any number of separate signature files are permitted and a component of the multi-signature wrapper will have a hard time self-signing without screwing something up), and simply allow dsig:dsig (W3C dsig binding) root elements on the ODF 1.2 Part 3 digital signature documents.
    
    Short-term problem solved either way.  Choose your poison.
    
    There is a lot more needed to have ODF 1.2 DSig be well-specified.  With the schema resolved, we might turn our attention to that more substantial matter of how XML Dsig is profiled for ODF 1.2.  (The original proposal accepted by the ODF TC over a year ago is somehow not reflected in ODF 1.2 Part 3 and ODF 1.2 Part 1 anywhere.  There was a lot more profiling of XML DSig that someone thought was important, and that the TC accepted, and now it is nowhere to be seen.)
    
     - Dennis
    
    
    
    


  • 7.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 20:36
    We have the same situation in Brazil, but at the time when the
    proposal was approved, the consensus was on "may", not on should.
    
    Best,
    
    Jomar
    
    On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Hanssens Bart 


  • 8.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-02-2010 19:37
    Gentlemen,
    
    I don't remember Bart's suggestion for strengthening the wording on XaDeS use having been discussed yet, though we did talk about the RNG schema in the TC meeting two weeks ago.
    
    Over the last 6th months or more there has been an increasing interest in not only XaDeS, but the other ETSI dig sig work as well. The next version of the main PDF standard (ISO 32000-2) as well as the newest PDF/A version (ISO 19005-2) both include support for PaDes. While 32000-2 isn't expected to publish until sometime in 2011, 19005-2 has gone out for DIS vote and will likely be published sometime in fall 2010.
    
    Changing from a may to a should in ODF 1.2 seems like a small but important way that we can acknowledge in the increasing push for XaDeS.
    
    Cherie
    
    


  • 9.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-02-2010 20:02
    We currently say:
    
    "Note: Applications may use extensions to the [xmldsig-core] 
    specification, such as those required
    for implementation of XAdES signatures specified in ETSI TS 101 903 v1.3.2 
    [XAdES]."
    
    And [XAdES] is a non-normative reference.
    
    Do we really want to say "Applications _should_ use extensions to the 
    [xmldsig-core] specification..." ?  That sounds odd to me.  Surely the 
    user, not the implementation should decide.
    
    Maybe we  want something like (in conformance terms) "A Conforming 
    OpenDocument Package Consumer should support  XAdES signatures specified 
    in ETSI TS 101 903 v1.3.2 [XAdES]" ?  (Could do the same on producer 
    conformance.)
    
    Note that if we make a provision recommending or requiring use of XAdES we 
    also should move [XAdES] into the normative references section.
    
    I'm not expressing an opinion one way or another on this change.  I'm just 
    trying to clarify the intended language.
    
    Rob
    
    
    
    Cherie Ekholm 


  • 10.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-02-2010 21:57
    I like your rewrite better - I'm all for leaving implementation details open but clarifying conformance requirements.
    
    Is "consumer" the right word? It may be, but something is niggling at the back of my brain.
    
    


  • 11.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-02-2010 22:05
    +1 on the improved wording, and indeed, XAdES should be listed in the
    normative section
    
    ________________________________________
    From: robert_weir@us.ibm.com [robert_weir@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 9:04 PM
    To: office@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion
    
    We currently say:
    
    "Note: Applications may use extensions to the [xmldsig-core]
    specification, such as those required
    for implementation of XAdES signatures specified in ETSI TS 101 903 v1.3.2
    [XAdES]."
    
    And [XAdES] is a non-normative reference.
    
    Do we really want to say "Applications _should_ use extensions to the
    [xmldsig-core] specification..." ?  That sounds odd to me.  Surely the
    user, not the implementation should decide.
    
    Maybe we  want something like (in conformance terms) "A Conforming
    OpenDocument Package Consumer should support  XAdES signatures specified
    in ETSI TS 101 903 v1.3.2 [XAdES]" ?  (Could do the same on producer
    conformance.)
    
    Note that if we make a provision recommending or requiring use of XAdES we
    also should move [XAdES] into the normative references section.
    
    I'm not expressing an opinion one way or another on this change.  I'm just
    trying to clarify the intended language.
    
    Rob
    
    
    
    Cherie Ekholm 


  • 12.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-02-2010 23:23
    On 2 March 2010 20:04,  


  • 13.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-03-2010 16:52
    Bob Jolliffe 


  • 14.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-05-2010 06:50
    Rob,
    
    my main point is that: currently XAdES support is a "may" in a "note".
    
    Now, I only know one ODF-office suite code base that actually implements
    XML-DSIG, but IIRC even this implementation uses its own ds:Object to
    indicate the signing time. So there already is a need for something more
    than just plain XML-DSIG...
    
    XML-DSIG is just fine for signing macro's etc, but when signing documents,
    it's going to be hard _not_ to use XAdES if one is serious about it.
    
    
    > So I think this all boils down to this, I think:
    >
    > A) Do we want to mandate that consumers understand XAdES ?  I don't think
    > so.  Remember, as currently writtem  a conforming consumer is not required
    > to understand dsigs at all.
    
    I'd suggest a "should understand XAdES" if they understand XML-DSIG.
    
    Note that XAdES has various "forms" (or "levels"): ranging from a simple
    XAdES-BES to everything but the kitchen sink XAdES-A for archiving. I'll
    leave it up to the implementation to decide what level they'd like to support.
    
    
    > B) Do we want to require that consumers tolerate, i.e., degrade gracefully
    > in the presence of XAdES extensions if they don't understand them?  I
    > think that is reasonable and covered by "need not interpret the semantics
    > of all elements, attributes and attribute values".
    
    Degrading shouldn't be a problem, just ignore ds:Object and its children.
    
    
    > C) Do we want to ensure that XAdES are allowed in conforming packages?  or
    > only in extended packages?  I think the "extended" conformance class was
    > meant for document types that went beyond the defines MIME content types
    > for spreadsheets, text, presentations, etc.  There was the intent that the
    > core package conformance class would allow some extensions.
    
    IMHO, they should be allowed in conforming packages.
    
    
    > 2) Change PC1.1 to put some meat around how to degrade gracefully.  For
    > example, what should a consumer do if they encounter extensions that they
    > do not understand?  I assume it is better to ignore them than to give an
    > error and halt.  We might want to echo the similar language we have in
    > Part 1 on foreign elements and attributes.
    
    Yes, we need that for foreign element, attributes (and actually also for other
    ODF features, but that's another story)
    
    
    
    Best regards
    
    Bart
    


  • 15.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-08-2010 01:36
    OK.  If anyone wants a change to the current text, please enter a JIRA 
    issue with the specifics.  We can track the details better that way.
    
    Thanks!
    
    -Rob
    
    Hanssens Bart 


  • 16.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 03-08-2010 22:41
    I can take a shot at revising the language. I should be able to get to it in the next week or two.
    
    


  • 17.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 20:37
    > (The original proposal accepted by the ODF TC over a year ago is somehow not reflected in
    > ODF 1.2 Part 3 and ODF 1.2 Part 1 anywhere.
    
    Dennis,
    
    What are you trying to say with that ?
    
    Best,
    
    Jomar
    


  • 18.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 20:55
    I'm saying I don't know where it went and I don't understand how or why.  Do
    you? Did I miss something?
    
    If it was included we would have something to get our teeth into.  It could
    be reviewed and refined as needed to blend in with the 1.2 Part 3 and 1.2
    Part 1 as they now stand.  
    
    As it is, that work has apparently disappeared and we are left with a large
    hole.  I thought this was substantive material.  Was I not paying attention
    when it was taken out?
    
    


  • 19.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 21:01
    Are you talking about this: 
    http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/part3/cd01/OpenDocument-v1.2-part3-cd01.html#a_2_5_Digital_Signatures 
    and this:  
    http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/part3/cd01/OpenDocument-v1.2-part3-cd01.html#Digital_Signature_File 
    ?
    
    Best,
    
    Jomar
    
    Dennis E. Hamilton escreveu:
    > I'm saying I don't know where it went and I don't understand how or why.  Do
    > you? Did I miss something?
    >
    > If it was included we would have something to get our teeth into.  It could
    > be reviewed and refined as needed to blend in with the 1.2 Part 3 and 1.2
    > Part 1 as they now stand.  
    >
    > As it is, that work has apparently disappeared and we are left with a large
    > hole.  I thought this was substantive material.  Was I not paying attention
    > when it was taken out?
    >
    > 


  • 20.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 21:34
    You'r right.  I was careless and missed this during the Public Review
    period.  ODF 1.2 Part 3 CD01 Sections 4.2 and 4.3 are an useful foundation.
    I don't remember it being this tidy, but this is a good basis for review and
    any further tightening that may be required.
    
    Thanks for this. 
    
     - Dennis
    
    


  • 21.  RE: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 21:31
    Please, please, please.  If anyone things that something is missing that 
    should be there, please either:
    
    1) Enter a new JIRA defect explaining this,
    
    or
    
    2) Find the original JIRA defect (if there was one) for this issue and 
    reopen it.
    
    Remember, we're dealing with thousands of changes and human editors. There 
    will be mistakes in content and in processing.  We just need to be 
    methodical in finding and fixing any new errors introduced. 
    
    -Rob
    
    
    "Dennis E. Hamilton" 


  • 22.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 17:25
    Michael.Brauer@Sun.COM wrote on 02/19/2010 10:28:56 AM:
    
    > 
    > there are two JIRA issues I'd like to discuss in the next TC meeting:
    > 
    > 1) http://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/OFFICE-2215
    > 
    > The question here is whether or not we want to switch to XSD as schema
    > language for the digital signature schema.
    > 
    
    I'm reading Murta-san's request as asking that we use a RNG schema for W3C 
    digital signatures if one is available.  I'd agree, that if there is a 
    _normative_ RNG schema provided by the W3C we should adopt that.  Does 
    such a thing exist?  I don't want to use an informal RNG translation. 
    Although such an informal translation could be useful to some 
    implementers, we should remember that our citation of a schema is to 
    define the requirements of ODF documents.  An implementor is free to use 
    the same schema we cite, an equivalent one in another schema definition 
    language, or even no schema at all, since validation is not a requirement 
    on ODF consumers. 
    
    So if we have these mixed schema language situations (and we have this 
    with MathML as well), we can solve this in a couple ways:
    
    1) Use NVDL to define how the different sub document types should be 
    validated.
    
    2) Give equivalent information in the body of our specification. 
    
    My guess is that Murata-san and others would prefer that we used NVDL.  I 
    don't have a strong preference.  We need to specify their relationship one 
    way or another.  It seems easy enough to say (as we do today) "The 
    


  • 23.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 18:04
    On 19 February 2010 17:27,  


  • 24.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 19:24
    Dave Pawson 


  • 25.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 19:48
    On 19 February 2010 19:26,  


  • 26.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-19-2010 20:42
    Dave,  Although I certainly much appreciate your semi-annual contribution 
    to our work,  I find your use of the imperative to be incongruous with how 
    this TC works.   You are welcome to ask Murata-san if you wish, and I am 
    free to guess, and as previously stated, he is welcome to join the TC. 
    
    -Rob
    
    Dave Pawson 


  • 27.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-22-2010 13:26
    Hi,
    
    On 02/19/10 16:28, Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg wrote:
    > Hi
    > 
    > there are two JIRA issues I'd like to discuss in the next TC meeting:
    > 
    > 1) http://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/OFFICE-2215
    > 
    > The question here is whether or not we want to switch to XSD as schema
    > language for the digital signature schema.
    
    A few more comments:
    - There is to the best of my knowledge no normative RNG schema for W3C
    XML Digital Signatures.
    - The TC agreed as one of its first decisions when it started its work
    that the schema language for ODF is RNG. That is the reason why the ODF
    digital signature schema is defined as an RNG schema.
    - The issue that the schema currently does not restrict the content of
    


  • 28.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-22-2010 13:37
    Hello
    
    On 22 February 2010 13:25, Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 -
    Hamburg 


  • 29.  Re: [office] Two JIRA Issues for discussion

    Posted 02-22-2010 14:58
    Michael,
    
    I am torn between saying that we have known the "style" of the schema 
    (use of combine) was an issue for some time and agreeing with you that 
    ODF-Next would be a better target for such a change.
    
    Suggestion: You have spoken of having a more software production type 
    schedule for ODF, so that users could know when (approximately) new 
    features could be expected, etc. Could that be an answer to this and 
    similar questions if we fix an even tentative date for ODF-Next to 
    appear? So that our answer isn't "someday" but a more certain date in 
    the future? Which would allow us to back off from that date to establish 
    feature freezes, etc.
    
    I did find a resource that may be a partial answer to the comparison 
    issue, see http://www.brics.dk/schematools/, but that involves the 
    production and comparison of XML graphs. I suspect such a comparison 
    would be sufficient but I don't think enough time remains to be entirely 
    certain on that score.
    
    On the whole, I think making sure that the additions/changes we have 
    already made are of a higher priority that schema style issues (granting 
    those are important as well, but there are only so many hours in a day).
    
    Hope you are at the start of a great week!
    
    Patrick
    
    On 2/22/2010 8:25 AM, Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > On 02/19/10 16:28, Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - Hamburg wrote:
    >> Hi
    >>
    >> there are two JIRA issues I'd like to discuss in the next TC meeting:
    >>
    >> 1) http://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/OFFICE-2215
    >>
    >> The question here is whether or not we want to switch to XSD as schema
    >> language for the digital signature schema.
    >
    > A few more comments:
    > - There is to the best of my knowledge no normative RNG schema for W3C
    > XML Digital Signatures.
    > - The TC agreed as one of its first decisions when it started its work
    > that the schema language for ODF is RNG. That is the reason why the ODF
    > digital signature schema is defined as an RNG schema.
    > - The issue that the schema currently does not restrict the content of
    >