OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

  • 1.  Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting in trend lines

    Posted 10-25-2012 21:58
    I'm not sure we want to specify the method
    used to fit the curve.  We should probably specify the outcome.  
    The specific algorithm used might vary according to the processor, number
    of processors, etc.

    I'm sure Andreas would have some ideas,
    but I wonder if we could say something like, "Uses an implementation-defined
    method to fit a sigmoid curve to the data while minimizing the average
    squared deviation".  Then we're specifying the outcome, but allowing
    fo innovation in the method.

    -Rob


    Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> wrote
    on 10/25/2012 05:26:46 PM:

    > From: Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>
    > To: James Salsman <jsalsman@gmail.com>,

    > Cc: office-comment@lists.oasis-open.org
    > Date: 10/25/2012 05:26 PM
    > Subject: Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve
    fitting in trend lines
    >
    > James,
    >
    > First, thanks for the references!
    >
    > Second, standards can refer to other standards but generally not to

    > periodical literature as normative.
    >
    > Which means we will have to extract the necessary definitions and

    > incorporate them in the text.
    >
    > I will grab copies of them in the next day or so to see what that
    will take.
    >
    > Hope you are having a great week!
    >
    > Patrick
    >
    > On 10/24/2012 09:43 PM, James Salsman wrote:
    > > Patrick,
    > >
    > > Thank you for your question.
    > >
    > > First, please change "Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with
    a
    > > logistic...." to "Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with
    a Gompertz...."
    > > on the fifth line of my original request below.  I'm sorry
    about that
    > > typo, and I tried to fix it, but it apparently didn't get fixed
    in my
    > > request.
    > >
    > > As for the methods of calculating the parameters for fitting
    those two
    > > very important curves, instead of trying to describe them, could
    you
    > > please reference these authoritative descriptions of the algorithms
    > > instead?
    > >
    > > For logistic curve fitting: J. A. Nelder (March 1961) "The
    Fitting of
    > > a Generalization of the Logistic Curve" _Biometrics_ vol.
    17, no. 1,
    > > pp. 89-110: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2527498
    > >
    > > For Gompertz curve fitting: Karl W. Kaufmann (1981) "Fitting
    and using
    > > growth curves" _Oecologia_ vol. 49, no. 3, pp. 293-299:
    > > http://www.springerlink.com/content/w153v81q72400q62
    > >
    > > Please let me know if I can help any further.
    > >
    > > Best regards,
    > > James Salsman
    > >
    > >
    > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Patrick Durusau
    > <patrick@durusau.net> wrote:
    > >> James,
    > >>
    > >> With regard to your request for the addition of:
    > >>
    > >>> "* logistic sigmoid – Regression with a logistic
    sigmoid function –
    > >>> approximate the values of the series using the model:
    y =
    > >>> A+B/(1+e^(-(x-C)/D))
    > >>>
    > >>> "* Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with a logistic
    sigmoid function –
    > >>> approximate the values of the series using the model:
    y =
    > >>> A+B·e^(C·e^(D·x))"
    > >>
    > >> To the ODF standard.
    > >>
    > >> Can you define the method for calculating the parameters
    of these two
    > >> functions?
    > >>
    > >> Please pardon our delay in reaching your request.
    > >>
    > >> The TC has not made a decision about your request but having
    the additional
    > >> information will make that task easier.
    > >>
    > >> Thanks!
    > >>
    > >> Hope you are having a great week!
    > >>
    > >> Patrick
    > >>
    > >> --
    > >> Patrick Durusau
    > >> patrick@durusau.net
    > >> Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
    > >> Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
    > >> Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC
    26300
    > >> Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
    > >>
    > >> Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
    > >> Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
    > >> Twitter: patrickDurusau
    > >>
    >
    > --
    > Patrick Durusau
    > patrick@durusau.net
    > Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
    > Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
    > Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300
    > Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
    >
    > Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
    > Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
    > Twitter: patrickDurusau
    >
    >
    > --
    > This publicly archived list offers a means to provide input to the
    > OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument)
    TC.
    >
    > In order to verify user consent to the Feedback License terms and
    > to minimize spam in the list archive, subscription is required
    > before posting.
    >
    > Subscribe: office-comment-subscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
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    > Join OASIS: http://www.oasis-open.org/join/
    >




  • 2.  Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting in trend lines

    Posted 10-26-2012 04:32
    On Thu, 2012-10-25 at 15:57 -0600, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote: > I'm not sure we want to specify the method used to fit the curve. We > should probably specify the outcome. The specific algorithm used > might vary according to the processor, number of processors, etc. > > I'm sure Andreas would have some ideas, but I wonder if we could say > something like, "Uses an implementation-defined method to fit a > sigmoid curve to the data while minimizing the average squared > deviation". Then we're specifying the outcome, but allowing fo > innovation in the method. Are we sure that the proposals (and the calculation supposedly outlined in those papers I haven't read,) in fact create a curve that minimizes the average squared deviation? I am not used to R, but looking at the example referenced in a previous message in this thread and considering R's SSlogis function it seems to me that R's fitting depends not only on the data but also on three initial values. Are we sure that there is a unique sigmoid function that can be fitted to a given set of data? If there is more than one than a generic description as above will not provide for interoperability. Andreas > > > Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> wrote on 10/25/2012 05:26:46 PM: > > > From: Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> > > To: James Salsman <jsalsman@gmail.com>, > > Cc: office-comment@lists.oasis-open.org > > Date: 10/25/2012 05:26 PM > > Subject: Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting in trend > lines > > > > James, > > > > First, thanks for the references! > > > > Second, standards can refer to other standards but generally not to > > periodical literature as normative. > > > > Which means we will have to extract the necessary definitions and > > incorporate them in the text. > > > > I will grab copies of them in the next day or so to see what that > will take. > > > > Hope you are having a great week! > > > > Patrick > > > > On 10/24/2012 09:43 PM, James Salsman wrote: > > > Patrick, > > > > > > Thank you for your question. > > > > > > First, please change "Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with a > > > logistic...." to "Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with a > Gompertz...." > > > on the fifth line of my original request below. I'm sorry about > that > > > typo, and I tried to fix it, but it apparently didn't get fixed in > my > > > request. > > > > > > As for the methods of calculating the parameters for fitting those > two > > > very important curves, instead of trying to describe them, could > you > > > please reference these authoritative descriptions of the > algorithms > > > instead? > > > > > > For logistic curve fitting: J. A. Nelder (March 1961) "The Fitting > of > > > a Generalization of the Logistic Curve" _Biometrics_ vol. 17, no. > 1, > > > pp. 89-110: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2527498 > > > > > > For Gompertz curve fitting: Karl W. Kaufmann (1981) "Fitting and > using > > > growth curves" _Oecologia_ vol. 49, no. 3, pp. 293-299: > > > http://www.springerlink.com/content/w153v81q72400q62 > > > > > > Please let me know if I can help any further. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > James Salsman > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Patrick Durusau > > <patrick@durusau.net> wrote: > > >> James, > > >> > > >> With regard to your request for the addition of: > > >> > > >>> "* logistic sigmoid – Regression with a logistic sigmoid > function – > > >>> approximate the values of the series using the model: y = > > >>> A+B/(1+e^(-(x-C)/D)) > > >>> > > >>> "* Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with a logistic sigmoid > function – > > >>> approximate the values of the series using the model: y = > > >>> A+B·e^(C·e^(D·x))" > > >> > > >> To the ODF standard. > > >> > > >> Can you define the method for calculating the parameters of these > two > > >> functions? > > >> > > >> Please pardon our delay in reaching your request. > > >> > > >> The TC has not made a decision about your request but having the > additional > > >> information will make that task easier. > > >> > > >> Thanks! > > >> > > >> Hope you are having a great week! > > >> > > >> Patrick > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Patrick Durusau > > >> patrick@durusau.net > > >> Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34 > > >> Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps) > > >> Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC > 26300 > > >> Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps) > > >> > > >> Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net > > >> Homepage: http://www.durusau.net > > >> Twitter: patrickDurusau > > >> > > > > -- > > Patrick Durusau > > patrick@durusau.net > > Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34 > > Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps) > > Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300 > > Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps) > > > > Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net > > Homepage: http://www.durusau.net > > Twitter: patrickDurusau > > > > > > -- > > This publicly archived list offers a means to provide input to the > > OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) > TC. > > > > In order to verify user consent to the Feedback License terms and > > to minimize spam in the list archive, subscription is required > > before posting. > > > > Subscribe: office-comment-subscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > > Unsubscribe: office-comment-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > > List help: office-comment-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > List archive: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/ > > Feedback License: > http://www.oasis-open.org/who/ipr/feedback_license.pdf > > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > Committee: > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office > > Join OASIS: http://www.oasis-open.org/join/ > > -- Andreas J. Guelzow, PhD, FTICA Concordia University College of Alberta Attachment: signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part


  • 3.  Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting in trend lines

    Posted 11-05-2012 20:05
    office@lists.oasis-open.org wrote on 10/26/2012 12:32:24
    AM:

    > From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" <andreas.guelzow@concordia.ab.ca>
    > To: office@lists.oasis-open.org,
    > Date: 10/26/2012 12:32 AM
    > Subject: Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re:
    sigmoid curve fitting
    > in trend lines
    > Sent by: office@lists.oasis-open.org
    >
    > On Thu, 2012-10-25 at 15:57 -0600, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote:
    > > I'm not sure we want to specify the method used to fit the curve.
     We
    > > should probably specify the outcome.   The specific algorithm
    used
    > > might vary according to the processor, number of processors,
    etc.
    > >
    > > I'm sure Andreas would have some ideas, but I wonder if we could
    say
    > > something like, "Uses an implementation-defined method to
    fit a
    > > sigmoid curve to the data while minimizing the average squared
    > > deviation".  Then we're specifying the outcome, but
    allowing fo
    > > innovation in the method.
    >
    >
    > Are we sure that the proposals (and the calculation supposedly outlined
    > in those papers I haven't read,) in fact create a curve that minimizes
    > the average squared deviation?
    >
    > I am not used to R, but looking at the example referenced in a previous
    > message in this thread and considering R's SSlogis function it seems
    to
    > me that R's fitting depends not only on the data but also on three
    > initial values. Are we sure that there is a unique sigmoid function
    that
    > can be fitted to a given set of data?
    >
    > If there is more than one than a generic description as above will
    not
    > provide for interoperability.
    >

    So what are our choices?

    1) Say something in very general terms, like: "attempts
    a 'best fit' of the data to the following model:" This allows implementations
    to vary on the quality of the fit, but doesn't guarantee identical results.
     So similar to IRR().

    2)Cite a specific algorithm, with the risk that it
    might not be the best one today, or the best one 5 years from now.  But
    it will give the same results to the extent everyone implements the cited
    algorithm.

    IIRC once you get beyond linear models, or ones that
    can be transformed to linear models, you no longer generally have simple
    techniques that easily yield the same answer.  You have optimization
    heuristics that will depend not only on parameters of the mode, but also
    parameters of the algorithm, like step size, number of iterations, etc.
     So although in theory we could do #2, wouldn't we be 2nd guessing
    the implementor on a lot of these details?

    -Rob

    > Andreas
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> wrote on 10/25/2012
    05:26:46 PM:
    > >
    > > > From: Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>
    > > > To: James Salsman <jsalsman@gmail.com>,
    > > > Cc: office-comment@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > > Date: 10/25/2012 05:26 PM
    > > > Subject: Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting
    in trend
    > > lines
    > > >
    > > > James,
    > > >
    > > > First, thanks for the references!
    > > >
    > > > Second, standards can refer to other standards but generally
    not to
    > > > periodical literature as normative.
    > > >
    > > > Which means we will have to extract the necessary definitions
    and
    > > > incorporate them in the text.
    > > >
    > > > I will grab copies of them in the next day or so to see
    what that
    > > will take.
    > > >
    > > > Hope you are having a great week!
    > > >
    > > > Patrick
    > > >
    > > > On 10/24/2012 09:43 PM, James Salsman wrote:
    > > > > Patrick,
    > > > >
    > > > > Thank you for your question.
    > > > >
    > > > > First, please change "Gompertz sigmoid – Regression
    with a
    > > > > logistic...." to "Gompertz sigmoid – Regression
    with a
    > > Gompertz...."
    > > > > on the fifth line of my original request below.  I'm
    sorry about
    > > that
    > > > > typo, and I tried to fix it, but it apparently didn't
    get fixed in
    > > my
    > > > > request.
    > > > >
    > > > > As for the methods of calculating the parameters for
    fitting those
    > > two
    > > > > very important curves, instead of trying to describe
    them, could
    > > you
    > > > > please reference these authoritative descriptions of
    the
    > > algorithms
    > > > > instead?
    > > > >
    > > > > For logistic curve fitting: J. A. Nelder (March 1961)
    "The Fitting
    > > of
    > > > > a Generalization of the Logistic Curve" _Biometrics_
    vol. 17, no.
    > > 1,
    > > > > pp. 89-110: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2527498
    > > > >
    > > > > For Gompertz curve fitting: Karl W. Kaufmann (1981)
    "Fitting and
    > > using
    > > > > growth curves" _Oecologia_ vol. 49, no. 3, pp.
    293-299:
    > > > > http://www.springerlink.com/content/w153v81q72400q62
    > > > >
    > > > > Please let me know if I can help any further.
    > > > >
    > > > > Best regards,
    > > > > James Salsman
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Patrick Durusau
    > > > <patrick@durusau.net> wrote:
    > > > >> James,
    > > > >>
    > > > >> With regard to your request for the addition of:
    > > > >>
    > > > >>> "* logistic sigmoid – Regression with
    a logistic sigmoid
    > > function –
    > > > >>> approximate the values of the series using
    the model: y =
    > > > >>> A+B/(1+e^(-(x-C)/D))
    > > > >>>
    > > > >>> "* Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with
    a logistic sigmoid
    > > function –
    > > > >>> approximate the values of the series using
    the model: y =
    > > > >>> A+B·e^(C·e^(D·x))"
    > > > >>
    > > > >> To the ODF standard.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Can you define the method for calculating the parameters
    of these
    > > two
    > > > >> functions?
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Please pardon our delay in reaching your request.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> The TC has not made a decision about your request
    but having the
    > > additional
    > > > >> information will make that task easier.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Thanks!
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Hope you are having a great week!
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Patrick
    > > > >>
    > > > >> --
    > > > >> Patrick Durusau
    > > > >> patrick@durusau.net
    > > > >> Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
    > > > >> Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
    > > > >> Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project
    Editor ISO/IEC
    > > 26300
    > > > >> Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
    > > > >> Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
    > > > >> Twitter: patrickDurusau
    > > > >>
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > Patrick Durusau
    > > > patrick@durusau.net
    > > > Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
    > > > Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
    > > > Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC
    26300
    > > > Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
    > > >
    > > > Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
    > > > Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
    > > > Twitter: patrickDurusau
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > This publicly archived list offers a means to provide input
    to the
    > > > OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument)
    > > TC.
    > > >
    > > > In order to verify user consent to the Feedback License
    terms and
    > > > to minimize spam in the list archive, subscription is required
    > > > before posting.
    > > >
    > > > Subscribe: office-comment-subscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > > Unsubscribe: office-comment-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > > List help: office-comment-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > > List archive: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/
    > > > Feedback License:
    > > http://www.oasis-open.org/who/ipr/feedback_license.pdf
    > > > List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
    > > > Committee:
    > > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office
    > > > Join OASIS: http://www.oasis-open.org/join/
    > > >
    >
    > --
    > Andreas J. Guelzow, PhD, FTICA
    > Concordia University College of Alberta
    > [attachment "signature.asc" deleted by Robert Weir/Cambridge/IBM]




  • 4.  Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting in trend lines

    Posted 11-05-2012 20:20
    Well, personally I see little point in specifying an attribute value that will not lead to any interoperability. In that case I think it is much better to allow name-spaced attribute values so that different implementations can easily add their favourite best-fit lines, or at least only add attribute values if at least one implementation is willing to implement it and describe its algorithm. Just adding an attribute value nobody supports seems to be pointless. Andreas On Mon, 2012-11-05 at 13:04 -0700, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote: > office@lists.oasis-open.org wrote on 10/26/2012 12:32:24 AM: > > > From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" <andreas.guelzow@concordia.ab.ca> > > To: office@lists.oasis-open.org, > > Date: 10/26/2012 12:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting > > in trend lines > > Sent by: office@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > On Thu, 2012-10-25 at 15:57 -0600, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote: > > > I'm not sure we want to specify the method used to fit the curve. > We > > > should probably specify the outcome. The specific algorithm used > > > might vary according to the processor, number of processors, etc. > > > > > > I'm sure Andreas would have some ideas, but I wonder if we could > say > > > something like, "Uses an implementation-defined method to fit a > > > sigmoid curve to the data while minimizing the average squared > > > deviation". Then we're specifying the outcome, but allowing fo > > > innovation in the method. > > > > > > Are we sure that the proposals (and the calculation supposedly > outlined > > in those papers I haven't read,) in fact create a curve that > minimizes > > the average squared deviation? > > > > I am not used to R, but looking at the example referenced in a > previous > > message in this thread and considering R's SSlogis function it seems > to > > me that R's fitting depends not only on the data but also on three > > initial values. Are we sure that there is a unique sigmoid function > that > > can be fitted to a given set of data? > > > > If there is more than one than a generic description as above will > not > > provide for interoperability. > > > > So what are our choices? > > 1) Say something in very general terms, like: "attempts a 'best fit' > of the data to the following model:" This allows implementations to > vary on the quality of the fit, but doesn't guarantee identical > results. So similar to IRR(). > > 2)Cite a specific algorithm, with the risk that it might not be the > best one today, or the best one 5 years from now. But it will give > the same results to the extent everyone implements the cited > algorithm. > > IIRC once you get beyond linear models, or ones that can be > transformed to linear models, you no longer generally have simple > techniques that easily yield the same answer. You have optimization > heuristics that will depend not only on parameters of the mode, but > also parameters of the algorithm, like step size, number of > iterations, etc. So although in theory we could do #2, wouldn't we be > 2nd guessing the implementor on a lot of these details? > > -Rob > > > Andreas > > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> wrote on 10/25/2012 05:26:46 > PM: > > > > > > > From: Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> > > > > To: James Salsman <jsalsman@gmail.com>, > > > > Cc: office-comment@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > Date: 10/25/2012 05:26 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting in trend > > > lines > > > > > > > > James, > > > > > > > > First, thanks for the references! > > > > > > > > Second, standards can refer to other standards but generally not > to > > > > periodical literature as normative. > > > > > > > > Which means we will have to extract the necessary definitions > and > > > > incorporate them in the text. > > > > > > > > I will grab copies of them in the next day or so to see what > that > > > will take. > > > > > > > > Hope you are having a great week! > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > On 10/24/2012 09:43 PM, James Salsman wrote: > > > > > Patrick, > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your question. > > > > > > > > > > First, please change "Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with a > > > > > logistic...." to "Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with a > > > Gompertz...." > > > > > on the fifth line of my original request below. I'm sorry > about > > > that > > > > > typo, and I tried to fix it, but it apparently didn't get > fixed in > > > my > > > > > request. > > > > > > > > > > As for the methods of calculating the parameters for fitting > those > > > two > > > > > very important curves, instead of trying to describe them, > could > > > you > > > > > please reference these authoritative descriptions of the > > > algorithms > > > > > instead? > > > > > > > > > > For logistic curve fitting: J. A. Nelder (March 1961) "The > Fitting > > > of > > > > > a Generalization of the Logistic Curve" _Biometrics_ vol. 17, > no. > > > 1, > > > > > pp. 89-110: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2527498 > > > > > > > > > > For Gompertz curve fitting: Karl W. Kaufmann (1981) "Fitting > and > > > using > > > > > growth curves" _Oecologia_ vol. 49, no. 3, pp. 293-299: > > > > > http://www.springerlink.com/content/w153v81q72400q62 > > > > > > > > > > Please let me know if I can help any further. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > James Salsman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Patrick Durusau > > > > <patrick@durusau.net> wrote: > > > > >> James, > > > > >> > > > > >> With regard to your request for the addition of: > > > > >> > > > > >>> "* logistic sigmoid – Regression with a logistic sigmoid > > > function – > > > > >>> approximate the values of the series using the model: y = > > > > >>> A+B/(1+e^(-(x-C)/D)) > > > > >>> > > > > >>> "* Gompertz sigmoid – Regression with a logistic sigmoid > > > function – > > > > >>> approximate the values of the series using the model: y = > > > > >>> A+B·e^(C·e^(D·x))" > > > > >> > > > > >> To the ODF standard. > > > > >> > > > > >> Can you define the method for calculating the parameters of > these > > > two > > > > >> functions? > > > > >> > > > > >> Please pardon our delay in reaching your request. > > > > >> > > > > >> The TC has not made a decision about your request but having > the > > > additional > > > > >> information will make that task easier. > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks! > > > > >> > > > > >> Hope you are having a great week! > > > > >> > > > > >> Patrick > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Patrick Durusau > > > > >> patrick@durusau.net > > > > >> Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34 > > > > >> Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps) > > > > >> Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor > ISO/IEC > > > 26300 > > > > >> Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps) > > > > >> > > > > >> Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net > > > > >> Homepage: http://www.durusau.net > > > > >> Twitter: patrickDurusau > > > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Durusau > > > > patrick@durusau.net > > > > Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34 > > > > Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps) > > > > Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC > 26300 > > > > Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps) > > > > > > > > Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net > > > > Homepage: http://www.durusau.net > > > > Twitter: patrickDurusau > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > This publicly archived list offers a means to provide input to > the > > > > OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications > (OpenDocument) > > > TC. > > > > > > > > In order to verify user consent to the Feedback License terms > and > > > > to minimize spam in the list archive, subscription is required > > > > before posting. > > > > > > > > Subscribe: office-comment-subscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > Unsubscribe: office-comment-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > List help: office-comment-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > List archive: > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/ > > > > Feedback License: > > > http://www.oasis-open.org/who/ipr/feedback_license.pdf > > > > List Guidelines: > http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php > > > > Committee: > > > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office > > > > Join OASIS: http://www.oasis-open.org/join/ > > > > > > > > -- > > Andreas J. Guelzow, PhD, FTICA > > Concordia University College of Alberta > > [attachment "signature.asc" deleted by Robert Weir/Cambridge/IBM] -- Andreas J. Guelzow, PhD FTICA Professor of Mathematical & Computing Sciences Concordia University College of Alberta Attachment: signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part


  • 5.  Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting in trend lines

    Posted 11-06-2012 15:13
    office@lists.oasis-open.org wrote on 11/05/2012 03:19:56
    PM:

    > From: Andreas J Guelzow <andreas.guelzow@concordia.ab.ca>
    > To: office@lists.oasis-open.org,
    > Date: 11/05/2012 03:20 PM
    > Subject: Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re:
    sigmoid curve fitting
    > in trend lines
    > Sent by: office@lists.oasis-open.org
    >
    > Well, personally I see little point in specifying an attribute value
    > that will not lead to any interoperability. In that case I think it
    is
    > much better to allow name-spaced attribute values so that different
    > implementations can easily add their favourite best-fit lines, or
    at
    > least only add attribute values if at least one implementation is
    > willing to implement it and describe its algorithm.
    >
    > Just adding an attribute value nobody supports seems to be pointless.
    >

    Well, that is a different issue, a good one,
    but different.

    Two questions:

    1) Does it make sense to specify requirements
    for numeric calculations that are not guaranteed to yield identical results?
     I'd say yes, and we already do this.  OpenFormula does not mandate
    a particular floating point processing model, or precision.  So even
    basic arithmetic operations are not guaranteed to be identical, although
    in practice most implementations will.  Even linear regression, if
    you have multicollinearity issues, can yield solutions that are sensitive
    to implementation details beyond what we currently specify.  I think
    this is fine -- a fact of life with numeric calculations -- and extending
    this to non-linear models is OK.

    2) Is anyone going to implement it?  
    I don't think that we want the ODF spec to be a preferred way for users
    to lobby for product features that they want their vendors to add.  That
    would be backwards.   So If no one is planning to implement this then
    I don't see any good reason to add it.  And as I've said previously,
    an even better indicator would be if more than one implementor is planning
    to support it.

    -Rob

    > Andreas
    >
    >
    > On Mon, 2012-11-05 at 13:04 -0700, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote:
    > > office@lists.oasis-open.org wrote on 10/26/2012 12:32:24 AM:
    > >
    > > > From: "Andreas J. Guelzow" <andreas.guelzow@concordia.ab.ca>

    > > > To: office@lists.oasis-open.org,
    > > > Date: 10/26/2012 12:32 AM
    > > > Subject: Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve
    fitting
    > > > in trend lines
    > > > Sent by: office@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > >
    > > > On Thu, 2012-10-25 at 15:57 -0600, robert_weir@us.ibm.com
    wrote:
    > > > > I'm not sure we want to specify the method used to
    fit the curve.
    > >  We
    > > > > should probably specify the outcome.   The specific
    algorithm used
    > > > > might vary according to the processor, number of processors,
    etc.
    > > > >
    > > > > I'm sure Andreas would have some ideas, but I wonder
    if we could
    > > say
    > > > > something like, "Uses an implementation-defined
    method to fit a
    > > > > sigmoid curve to the data while minimizing the average
    squared
    > > > > deviation".  Then we're specifying the outcome,
    but allowing fo
    > > > > innovation in the method.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Are we sure that the proposals (and the calculation supposedly
    > > outlined
    > > > in those papers I haven't read,) in fact create a curve
    that
    > > minimizes
    > > > the average squared deviation?
    > > >
    > > > I am not used to R, but looking at the example referenced
    in a
    > > previous
    > > > message in this thread and considering R's SSlogis function
    it seems
    > > to
    > > > me that R's fitting depends not only on the data but also
    on three
    > > > initial values. Are we sure that there is a unique sigmoid
    function
    > > that
    > > > can be fitted to a given set of data?
    > > >
    > > > If there is more than one than a generic description as
    above will
    > > not
    > > > provide for interoperability.
    > > >
    > >
    > > So what are our choices?
    > >
    > > 1) Say something in very general terms, like: "attempts
    a 'best fit'
    > > of the data to the following model:" This allows implementations
    to
    > > vary on the quality of the fit, but doesn't guarantee identical
    > > results.  So similar to IRR().
    > >
    > > 2)Cite a specific algorithm, with the risk that it might not
    be the
    > > best one today, or the best one 5 years from now.  But it
    will give
    > > the same results to the extent everyone implements the cited
    > > algorithm.
    > >
    > > IIRC once you get beyond linear models, or ones that can be
    > > transformed to linear models, you no longer generally have simple
    > > techniques that easily yield the same answer.  You have
    optimization
    > > heuristics that will depend not only on parameters of the mode,
    but
    > > also parameters of the algorithm, like step size, number of
    > > iterations, etc.  So although in theory we could do #2,
    wouldn't we be
    > > 2nd guessing the implementor on a lot of these details?
    > >
    > > -Rob
    > >
    > > > Andreas
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net> wrote on
    10/25/2012 05:26:46
    > > PM:
    > > > >
    > > > > > From: Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>

    > > > > > To: James Salsman <jsalsman@gmail.com>,

    > > > > > Cc: office-comment@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > > > > Date: 10/25/2012 05:26 PM
    > > > > > Subject: Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve
    fitting in trend
    > > > > lines
    > > > > >
    > > > > > James,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > First, thanks for the references!
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Second, standards can refer to other standards
    but generally not
    > > to
    > > > > > periodical literature as normative.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Which means we will have to extract the necessary
    definitions
    > > and
    > > > > > incorporate them in the text.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I will grab copies of them in the next day or
    so to see what
    > > that
    > > > > will take.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Hope you are having a great week!
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Patrick
    > > > > >
    > > > > > On 10/24/2012 09:43 PM, James Salsman wrote:
    > > > > > > Patrick,
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Thank you for your question.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > First, please change "Gompertz sigmoid
    – Regression with a
    > > > > > > logistic...." to "Gompertz sigmoid
    – Regression with a
    > > > > Gompertz...."
    > > > > > > on the fifth line of my original request
    below.  I'm sorry
    > > about
    > > > > that
    > > > > > > typo, and I tried to fix it, but it apparently
    didn't get
    > > fixed in
    > > > > my
    > > > > > > request.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > As for the methods of calculating the parameters
    for fitting
    > > those
    > > > > two
    > > > > > > very important curves, instead of trying
    to describe them,
    > > could
    > > > > you
    > > > > > > please reference these authoritative descriptions
    of the
    > > > > algorithms
    > > > > > > instead?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > For logistic curve fitting: J. A. Nelder
    (March 1961) "The
    > > Fitting
    > > > > of
    > > > > > > a Generalization of the Logistic Curve"
    _Biometrics_ vol. 17,
    > > no.
    > > > > 1,
    > > > > > > pp. 89-110: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2527498
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > For Gompertz curve fitting: Karl W. Kaufmann
    (1981) "Fitting
    > > and
    > > > > using
    > > > > > > growth curves" _Oecologia_ vol. 49,
    no. 3, pp. 293-299:
    > > > > > > http://www.springerlink.com/content/w153v81q72400q62
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Please let me know if I can help any further.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Best regards,
    > > > > > > James Salsman
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Patrick
    Durusau
    > > > > > <patrick@durusau.net> wrote:
    > > > > > >> James,
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> With regard to your request for the addition
    of:
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>> "* logistic sigmoid – Regression
    with a logistic sigmoid
    > > > > function –
    > > > > > >>> approximate the values of the series
    using the model: y =
    > > > > > >>> A+B/(1+e^(-(x-C)/D))
    > > > > > >>>
    > > > > > >>> "* Gompertz sigmoid – Regression
    with a logistic sigmoid
    > > > > function –
    > > > > > >>> approximate the values of the series
    using the model: y =
    > > > > > >>> A+B·e^(C·e^(D·x))"
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> To the ODF standard.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Can you define the method for calculating
    the parameters of
    > > these
    > > > > two
    > > > > > >> functions?
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Please pardon our delay in reaching your
    request.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> The TC has not made a decision about
    your request but having
    > > the
    > > > > additional
    > > > > > >> information will make that task easier.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Thanks!
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Hope you are having a great week!
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Patrick
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> --
    > > > > > >> Patrick Durusau
    > > > > > >> patrick@durusau.net
    > > > > > >> Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC
    34
    > > > > > >> Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
    > > > > > >> Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS),
    Project Editor
    > > ISO/IEC
    > > > > 26300
    > > > > > >> Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic
    Maps)
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
    > > > > > >> Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
    > > > > > >> Twitter: patrickDurusau
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --
    > > > > > Patrick Durusau
    > > > > > patrick@durusau.net
    > > > > > Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
    > > > > > Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
    > > > > > Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project
    Editor ISO/IEC
    > > 26300
    > > > > > Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
    > > > > > Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
    > > > > > Twitter: patrickDurusau
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --
    > > > > > This publicly archived list offers a means to
    provide input to
    > > the
    > > > > > OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications
    > > (OpenDocument)
    > > > > TC.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > In order to verify user consent to the Feedback
    License terms
    > > and
    > > > > > to minimize spam in the list archive, subscription
    is required
    > > > > > before posting.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Subscribe: office-comment-subscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > > > > Unsubscribe: office-comment-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > > > > List help: office-comment-help@lists.oasis-open.org
    > > > > > List archive:
    > > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/
    > > > > > Feedback License:
    > > > > http://www.oasis-open.org/who/ipr/feedback_license.pdf
    > > > > > List Guidelines:
    > > http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
    > > > > > Committee:
    > > > > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office
    > > > > > Join OASIS: http://www.oasis-open.org/join/
    > > > > >
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > Andreas J. Guelzow, PhD, FTICA
    > > > Concordia University College of Alberta
    > > > [attachment "signature.asc" deleted by Robert
    Weir/Cambridge/IBM]
    >
    > --
    > Andreas J. Guelzow, PhD FTICA
    > Professor of Mathematical & Computing Sciences
    > Concordia University College of Alberta
    > [attachment "signature.asc" deleted by Robert Weir/Cambridge/IBM]




  • 6.  Re: [office] Re: [office-comment] Re: sigmoid curve fitting in trend lines

    Posted 11-06-2012 16:09
    Am 06.11.2012 16:12, schrieb robert_weir@us.ibm.com: > 1) Does it make sense to specify requirements for numeric calculations > that are not guaranteed to yield identical results? I'd say yes, and we > already do this. OpenFormula does not mandate a particular floating > point processing model, or precision. So even basic arithmetic > operations are not guaranteed to be identical, although in practice most > implementations will. A general shortcoming of openformula is that earlier incarnations of the spec included examples. In many cases removing the examples then increased spec ambiguity because it is actually very difficult to explain by words what is explained by a simple example. Test suites won't harm. Best, A