OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

  • 1.  Conformance Clause Proposal: Clarifications, Extension features

    Posted 02-09-2009 09:34
    Dear TC members,
    
    regarding the discussion about the conformance clauses, and regarding 
    the latest proposal, I would like to provide a few clarifications:
    
    1. The "conformance" clause does forbid foreign elements and attributes. 
    It does not forbid RDF metadata. It does not forbid application 
    settings. It does not forbid adding other streams to ODF packages. If 
    anyone finds something in the proposal that could be understood as that 
    we forbid any of these things, please let me know what this is.
    2. The reference to the formula specification indeed is something like a 
    placeholder that may have to be adapted when the formula specification 
    is finished. I have added it, because there must be some language 
    regarding formulas, and we have to start somewhere.
    
    When I look through the discussion, then it seems to me that what is 
    mainly under discussion is the name of what is currently called "host 
    language conformance"? Is that correct? Or are the TC members that would 
    disagree to the proposal if we would have a different name where? If 
    not, I suggest that we concentrate on finding a different name that is 
    acceptable for all of us?
    
    Where is also a larger discussion regarding whether or not extensions 
    are good or bad, and what an application can do with them. I would like 
    to share my few on this:
    
    First of all, we must differ between a properly defined extensions 
    mechanism, and the use of foreign elements and attributes.
    
    A properly defined extension mechanism has some minimum semantics and 
    requirements. The new metadata feature for instances has the semantics 
    that the added information is to be interpreted as metadata. It is based 
    in RDF/XML and well defined set of attributes, so that a consumer can 
    identify metadata subjects, predicates and objects. A consumer therefore 
    may not be able to understand what the metadata means, but it at least 
    could tell a user that there is metadata, and may ask him whether it 
    should be deleted or not. Vice versa, an application that wants to 
    support metadata exactly does know what to implement.
    
    Or take the application settings. These are explicitly declared to be 
    application specific, and there is a mechanism to identify to which 
    application they belong. An consumer therefore does know that the 
    information it reads are application settings, and it does know that it 
    can safely ignore and remove settings from other applications.
    
    We also have the possibility to add user defined chart types, but again 
    with a proper identification mechanism.
    
    Foreign elements and attributes in this discussion are often seen as an 
    extension mechanism. Well, of cause, foreign elements can be technically 
    used as extension mechanism. But what is missing is a minimum set of 
    semantics that allows applications to process them properly. An 
    application does not know anything about them. It does not know whether 
    they constitute metadata, an proprietary extension, an embedded user 
    defined XML instance, or whatever. So, it indeed can do nothing else 
    than ignore this data. It can even not really ask the user what to do 
    with the data, because which user does a question where she or he is 
    asked whether not to keep a certain XML fragment. And who would answer
    'yes, keep it' without any knowledge what it is?
    
    It has multiple times drawn a connection between foreign elements and 
    customXML in the sense of OOXML. While allowing foreign elements and 
    attributes would indeed permit embedding custom XML instances into an 
    ODF document, I don't think that the current definition of foreign 
    elements and attributes in ODF (1.1) is a proper definition of a 
    customXML feature. For a customXML feature I would at least expect an 
    identification mechanism, and more important, a list of those places 
    where they can be actually embedded. Without that: How should an 
    application know that some foreign elements are in fact custom schemas? 
    Even an application that has such a feature implemented would not know 
    whether or not a set of foreign elements is a custom schema, or any 
    other data which another application has saved where. And how should one 
    application implement a customXML feature that is compatible with the 
    one of another application if it does not know where the other 
    application support customXML and which of the XML elements and 
    attributes are administrative data for the feature and those real custom 
    data?
    
    So I agree to Rob here: If we want such a feature, then we should define 
    it, but we should not use this as argument for a loose definition of 
    conformance. The same holds if we identify other areas where extension 
    appear reasonable, but where we do not have any extension mechanism in 
    place.
    
    Best regards
    
    Michael
    
    
    
    
    -- 
    Michael Brauer, Technical Architect Software Engineering
    StarOffice/OpenOffice.org
    Sun Microsystems GmbH             Nagelsweg 55
    D-20097 Hamburg, Germany          michael.brauer@sun.com
    http://sun.com/staroffice         +49 40 23646 500
    http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
    
    Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
    	   D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten
    Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
    Geschaeftsfuehrer: Thomas Schroeder, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
    Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering
    


  • 2.  Re: [office] Conformance Clause Proposal: Clarifications, Extension features

    Posted 02-09-2009 17:24
    On Monday 9. February 2009 10:33:13 ext Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - 
    Hamburg wrote:
    > It has multiple times drawn a connection between foreign elements and
    > customXML in the sense of OOXML. While allowing foreign elements and
    > attributes would indeed permit embedding custom XML instances into an
    > ODF document, I don't think that the current definition of foreign
    > elements and attributes in ODF (1.1) is a proper definition of a
    > customXML feature. For a customXML feature I would at least expect an
    > identification mechanism, and more important, a list of those places
    > where they can be actually embedded. Without that: How should an
    > application know that some foreign elements are in fact custom schemas?
    > Even an application that has such a feature implemented would not know
    > whether or not a set of foreign elements is a custom schema, or any
    > other data which another application has saved where. And how should one
    > application implement a customXML feature that is compatible with the
    > one of another application if it does not know where the other
    > application support customXML and which of the XML elements and
    > attributes are administrative data for the feature and those real custom
    > data?
    
    Loads of questions :)
    I'm not sure what your opinion is on this as you didn't answer those questions 
    here and thus I'm not sure if we agree or not.
    Could you tell me what your opinion on the matter is?
    
    I'm confused...
    
    -- 
    Thomas Zander
    


  • 3.  Re: [office] Conformance Clause Proposal: Clarifications,Extension features

    Posted 02-11-2009 08:16
    Thomas,
    
    On 09.02.09 18:24, Thomas Zander wrote:
    > On Monday 9. February 2009 10:33:13 ext Michael Brauer - Sun Germany - ham02 - 
    > Hamburg wrote:
    >> It has multiple times drawn a connection between foreign elements and
    >> customXML in the sense of OOXML. While allowing foreign elements and
    >> attributes would indeed permit embedding custom XML instances into an
    >> ODF document, I don't think that the current definition of foreign
    >> elements and attributes in ODF (1.1) is a proper definition of a
    >> customXML feature. For a customXML feature I would at least expect an
    >> identification mechanism, and more important, a list of those places
    >> where they can be actually embedded. Without that: How should an
    >> application know that some foreign elements are in fact custom schemas?
    >> Even an application that has such a feature implemented would not know
    >> whether or not a set of foreign elements is a custom schema, or any
    >> other data which another application has saved where. And how should one
    >> application implement a customXML feature that is compatible with the
    >> one of another application if it does not know where the other
    >> application support customXML and which of the XML elements and
    >> attributes are administrative data for the feature and those real custom
    >> data?
    > 
    > Loads of questions :)
    > I'm not sure what your opinion is on this as you didn't answer those questions 
    > here and thus I'm not sure if we agree or not.
    
    The questions above are just the questions that arise if foreign 
    elements and attributes are used to extend ODF. There is, in my opinion, 
    no answer to these questions, because foreign elements and attributes 
    have no semantics.
    
    > Could you tell me what your opinion on the matter is?
    
    I have no objections regarding extension mechanism, but think they must 
    be properly defined. To provide an example: If we would identify a 
    requirement for let's say allowing user defined drawing shapes, then we 
    would need an extension mechanism for drawing shapes where ODF consumers 
    at least can figure out that there is a user defined drawing shape. They 
    can then display a replacement, or warn the user. If the user defined 
    shape is only a foreign element, then there is nothing the consumer can 
    do except ignoring it.
    
    
    > 
    > I'm confused...
    > 
    I hope this helps.
    
    Michael
    
    -- 
    Michael Brauer, Technical Architect Software Engineering
    StarOffice/OpenOffice.org
    Sun Microsystems GmbH             Nagelsweg 55
    D-20097 Hamburg, Germany          michael.brauer@sun.com
    http://sun.com/staroffice         +49 40 23646 500
    http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
    
    Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1,
    	   D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten
    Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028
    Geschaeftsfuehrer: Thomas Schroeder, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer
    Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering