OASIS Energy Interoperation TC

  • 1.  Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-01-2010 13:55 
    No comments on the proposal to re-cast enegyinterop into 
    (1)    Contracts offered, executed, mandatory (DR)
    (2)    Bidding
    (2a) Block bidding
    (3)    Price Look-ahead
    Is this all the services? Is #3really pert of EMIX?
    Separate specifications for instantiations of energyinterop
    -          WS
    -          FIX
    -          CAP
    With this group probably only doing (1). (Note: CAP is inherently a partial set of services, and is already used in soma CA markets, so hat one might be straightforward)
    "Energy and persistence conquer all things." -- Benjamin Franklin 
    Toby Considine
    TC9, Inc
    OASIS Technical Advisory Board
    TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar
    TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop

      
    Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com
    Phone: (919)619-2104
    http://www.tcnine.com/
    blog: www.NewDaedalus.com


  • 2.  Re: [energyinterop] Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-01-2010 15:47
      |   view attached

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  • 3.  Re: [energyinterop] Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-01-2010 16:18 
    Toby,

Prior to consenting, I think we will need to elaborate and look at 
specific scenarios so that the opportunities are well articulated. Some 
examples would help (existing implementations vs. future 
considerations). My other thoughts below:


Toby Considine wrote:
>
> No comments on the proposal to re-cast enegyinterop into
>
>  
>
> (1)    Contracts offered, executed, mandatory (DR) -
>
Rish: Look into what could be used/needed above and beyond wat already 
exists in OpenADR v1.0. Need to understand the dynamics of the 
terminologies and concepts, which needs to be consistent.
>
> (2)    Bidding
>
> (2a) Block bidding
>
Rish: Not sure what this means and why are we considering only block 
bidding. Bidding should be generic with details on specific applications.
>
> (3)    Price Look-ahead
>
Rish: Do you mean price forecasting? If yes, then I think it's outside 
of EI scope. Our focus should be standardized DR (and DER) signals 
to/from the facility/ESI.
>
> Is this all the services? Is #3really pert of EMIX?
>
Rish: I would think so.
>
>  
>
> Separate specifications for instantiations of energyinterop
>
> -          WS
>
> -          FIX
>
> -          CAP
>
>  
>
> With this group probably only doing (1). (Note: CAP is inherently a 
> partial set of services, and is already used in soma CA markets, so 
> hat one might be straightforward)
>
Rish: Need to understand this better - Is FIX and CAP a technology or a 
communication protocol or information transmission medium (application 
layer)? Need to look at their relation to OSI model?

Thanks,
Rish
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Energy and persistence conquer all things." -- Benjamin Franklin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Toby Considine
> TC9, Inc
>
> OASIS Technical Advisory Board
> TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar
>
> TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop
>
> 	
>
>   
>
> 	
>
> Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com
>
> Phone: (919)619-2104
>
> http://www.tcnine.com/
>
> blog: www.NewDaedalus.com
>
>  
>
>  
>

-- 
Rish Ghatikar
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720
GGhatikar@lbl.gov | +1 510.486.6768 | +1 510.486.4089 [fax]

This email is intended for the addressee only and may contain 
confidential information and should not be copied without permission. If 
you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as 
possible and delete the email from computer[s].


  • 4.  RE: [energyinterop] Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-01-2010 17:04 
    A couple people asked for examples.

See chapter 4 of the last draft

tc


"If flies are allowed to vote, how meaningful would a poll on what to have for dinner be, and what would be on the menu?" -  Unknown

Toby Considine
Chair, OASIS oBIX Technical Committee
Co-Chair, OASIS Technical Advisory Board
Facilities Technology Office
University of North Carolina
Chapel Hill, NC
  
Email: Toby.Considine@ unc.edu
Phone: (919)962-9073 
http://www.oasis-open.org 
blog: www.NewDaedalus.com



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 5.  Re: [energyinterop] Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-01-2010 17:36 
    Toby,

I think that many of us could use more elaboration
on what you have written in your email.  Like Rish,
I am unsure to what FIX and CAP refer.  Also unclear
if bidding/contracts are going to be the only mechanism
for DR signal exchange.  This seems ill suited to smaller 
consumers or to handling grid emergencies.

-Evan

Evan K. Wallace
Manufacturing Systems Integration Division
NIST


  • 6.  RE: [energyinterop] Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-01-2010 18:08 
    Again

It starts with the comments on Section 4 of WD06 that I requested for
response before I extended them into the document.

tc


"If something is not worth doing, it`s not worth doing well" - Peter Drucker

Toby Considine
TC9, Inc
OASIS Technical Advisory Board
TC Chair: oBIX & WS-Calendar
TC Editor: EMIX, EnergyInterop

  
Email: Toby.Considine@gmail.com
Phone: (919)619-2104
http://www.tcnine.com/
blog: www.NewDaedalus.com



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 7.  RE: [energyinterop] Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-02-2010 01:43 
    All,

I think we need more focus in energy interop.

From the NIST Twiki the purpose of PAP 03 is to

Define a framework and common terminology for: 

1.Price communication, 
2.Grid safety or integrity signals, 
3.DER support, and 
4.Other signals and/or an extensibility mechanism. 

I have several questions and some answers.  Happy to listen to other answers
and questions.

First question: Shall we focus our effort on the smart grid with interval
metering or the dumb grid with cumulative monthly metering?
My answer, assume interval metering or we are taking on too much complexity
in our document with little added value.

Second question:  Do we begin with price communication for the electricity
(or gas) commodity or do we ignore price communication for the commodity and
go to directly to specify signals to reduce load from an undefined base?
My answer, clearly we have to begin with price communication for the
commodity.  That is, we need to communicate the price from a regulated or
competitive retail supplier to the end customer.  

The price should be :
(1) real-time price for any amount of energy, or
(2) forward prices for forward commitments of energy for specified intervals
that can be added up to meet the desired forward purchases of the customer
with any residual purchase or sale at real-time prices, or
(3) any amount of energy at forward contracted prices that is independent of
real-time price or any further transactions (this is actually an option to
purchase energy).  

Third question:  Shall we facilitate bidding into wholesale markets by
retail customers for load reductions from the base in (2) above?  
My answer is yes since this is no different from the buying and selling in
forward transactions referenced above for the Second question. ( pricing
communication (2) ) 

Fourth question:  Shall we facilitate peak load pricing and rebates? 
My answer is yes, as this is just another forward purchase or sale and is
included just like the answer to the third question.

Fifth question:  Shall we facilitate offers by customers to reduce or
increase forward purchases.
Yes, as this is included just like the answers to the third and fourth
questions.

Sixth question:  Shall we facilitate options for the retailer or ISO to buy
back at prescribed (high) prices (a call option by the retailer?  And shall
we facilitate options for the retailer or ISO to put back at prescribed
(low) prices (a put option by the retailer?  Similar options can be
described for the customers?

My answer is yes, but this is not high priority.

Seventh question: What are grid safety and integrity signals?  

My answer: These have nothing to do with price and should be restricted to
signals to the capable meters to
1. disconnect from the grid
2. prevent backflow to the grid
3. limit power consumed from the grid or provided to the grid under
emergency only conditions to protect the grid equipment.
A separate category could be notifications for voluntary actions by groups
of customers. 

Sixth question: How should we provide for DER support?
My answer is that we use the structure described above.  No other changes
are needed.

Seventh question: What are other signals?
My answer is that I don't know and the above seems adequate.



Regards, Ed



Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.
101 First Street, Suite 552
Los Altos, CA 94022
650-949-5274
cell: 408-621-2772
ed@cazalet.com
www.cazalet.com



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 8.  RE: [energyinterop] Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-02-2010 02:15 
    Sorry the reference to PAP 03 should be to PAP 09 which is the PAP energy
interop is addressing.

Edward G. Cazalet, Ph.D.
101 First Street, Suite 552
Los Altos, CA 94022
650-949-5274
cell: 408-621-2772
ed@cazalet.com
www.cazalet.com



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 9.  RE: [energyinterop] Is silence consent?

    Posted 03-09-2010 22:13 
    










    


    Some thoughts on Ed's 3/1/10 questions: 
    


    •       
Ref Q2: we agreed to standardize DR signals, which to
me takes the message set from OpenADR and adds a few more with the goal of a
set of generalized messages that matches the large majority of existing DR
programs. Communicating a price is one option. 
    


    •       
Q7: I thought integrity signals were the DR messages.
I'm not sure what grid safety signals are. Toby?
    


    •       
2nd Q6--I think we need to pay attention to
PAP 7 and probably other efforts marching forward on DER integration and think
about what needs to happen in EnergyInterop.
    


    


    Different subject--thoughts following last week's call. Some
concepts/dimensions from the Collaborative Interactions vs. NOT-collaborative
discussion (and why it’s complicated trying to pin this down):
    


    •       
Local vs. remote management (in the facility vs.
utility control)
    


    •       
DLC and DR where the utility has contractually
guaranteed response amount vs. no guaranteed response 
    


    •       
DR bid vs. price response. 
    


    •       
M&V versus not
    


    •       
Mandatory vs. voluntary contracts
    


    •       
AMI vs Internet channel
    


    •       
Utility remote DLC versus virtual DLC (utility owned
in-home EMS, e.g., the PCT)
    


    •       
Energy Interop vs. SEP
    


    •       
Variety of DR program types
    


    


    David
    


    



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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