OASIS Key Management Interoperability Protocol (KMIP) TC

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  • 1.  Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-21-2009 14:24
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I wanted to re-iterate what I talked about on the last conference call in looking at conformance at a higher level.  I have a concern that multiple server profiles will fragment adoption and increase the complexity and/or frailty of interoperability. 

    Here’s the scenario I’d like to avoid.  Say I purchase a KMIP conforming server for tape devices, then later purchase/upgrade some client product that also claims “KMIP Conformance” but the new client needs a different profile from the server, so I get a second key management server.  After a few iterations I may end up with several KMIP implementations across the enterprise (compounded by any added features from vendor extensions).  The end result is that my key management now looks like the picture of what KMIP is trying to solve: isolated key management instances that can only support a fraction of the clients in my network.

    Here’s what I would propose, a single KMIP profile for servers, that should support whatever client gets thrown at it.  This makes the server interchangeable in the network.  It will be more work to create a KMIP Server, but there shouldn’t be many of them in an enterprise anyway.  The clients are compliant only in the requests they choose to make.  If a client won’t ever request asymmetric keys, they wouldn’t have a need to support it and it would still be conforming to the standard.

    Thanks,
    Jay Jacobs



  • 2.  Re: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-21-2009 14:44

    I tend to disagree.  I think that's because we have different views of how KMIP might be provided in products.

    I think the conformance requirement might want to specify the minimum set of things we thing all KMIP servers should support, and not the maximum set.  

    Consider this scenario, which I think is very different from what you have in mind.  Instead of a general-purpose server with software implementing KMIP, let's say my company wants to support KMIP for a specific application, and I want to provide that support in a special-purpose piece of secure hardware.  A good example is the use of KMIP to support key management for a banking application, where I would implement the necessary KMIP features in a secure HSM instead of doing it in software in a general-purpose server.  Doing KMIP in a special-purpose hardware device like this is "hard", and implementing and testing the full set if KMIP functionality would be very expensive.  If I know that the clients that will be using my device to serve keys are very limited in their requirements, I can afford to do this development - but if the KMIP standard makes it mandatory that I also implement and test all the many, many other KMIP functions that I know my clients will never use, it will probably make the job too expensive and I'll probably decide not to implement KMIP at all.  I don't think that is what we want - I think we want to define KMIP so that it will be as attractive as possible to the maximum number of people.  We want to write this so that everyone will be excited and will see how it can be used in their environment, whether that environment is general-purpose or special-purpose.  In view of that, the minimum set of required features might be those things that are necessary for a client to figure out if KMIP suits their needs or not.

    In your example scenario, you suggest that there could be a proliferation of different KMIP servers with different capabilities.  I'm not sure I agree, unless there are real reasons to have those separate implementations.  I think what might be more likely is that people would switch from a limited-function KMIP server to a broader-function KMIP server that is a superset of what they had when they only needed simpler functions.  I think vendors who develop KMIP servers might go one of two ways - they might just do the whole thing, which would let people start off with something that would meet most of their needs now and in the future, or they might offer a basic KMIP server for one price and then offer enhanced versions at extra cost (maybe even "plug-ins" to add KMIP functionality).  

    Just my views...

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Todd W. Arnold, STSM
    IBM Cryptographic Technology Development
    (704) 594-8253   FAX 594-8336
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    email:  arnoldt@us.ibm.com



    From: "Jay.Jacobs" <Jay.Jacobs@target.com>
    To: "kmip@lists.oasis-open.org" <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>
    Date: 08/21/2009 10:23 AM
    Subject: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance





    I wanted to re-iterate what I talked about on the last conference call in looking at conformance at a higher level.  I have a concern that multiple server profiles will fragment adoption and increase the complexity and/or frailty of interoperability.  
     
    Here’s the scenario I’d like to avoid.  Say I purchase a KMIP conforming server for tape devices, then later purchase/upgrade some client product that also claims “KMIP Conformance” but the new client needs a different profile from the server, so I get a second key management server.  After a few iterations I may end up with several KMIP implementations across the enterprise (compounded by any added features from vendor extensions).  The end result is that my key management now looks like the picture of what KMIP is trying to solve: isolated key management instances that can only support a fraction of the clients in my network.
     
    Here’s what I would propose, a single KMIP profile for servers, that should support whatever client gets thrown at it.  This makes the server interchangeable in the network.  It will be more work to create a KMIP Server, but there shouldn’t be many of them in an enterprise anyway.  The clients are compliant only in the requests they choose to make.  If a client won’t ever request asymmetric keys, they wouldn’t have a need to support it and it would still be conforming to the standard.
     
    Thanks,
    Jay Jacobs




  • 3.  RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-21-2009 14:56
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Requiring all KMIP compliant servers to implement most of the KMIP specification would raise the costs of the users requiring only a single subset of KMIP for their application. Allowing targeted profiles to support the lower cost, targeted servers, does not necessarily mean there will be a multitude of KMIP servers required. If a user requires support of a single profile, a KMIP compliant server can be purchased that supports just the one profile. If the user wishes to have a more general purpose KMIP server, he can purchase a server that supports multiple profiles, approaching the server that supports most of the KMIP specification.

    The user who requires, or might require in the future, can purchase the KMIP server that provides support for multiple profiles, or that can be upgraded to support multiple profiles at a later time. This would prevent the problem of having one key server for each purpose.

    David Lawson

    Emulex Corporation

    From: Todd Arnold [mailto:arnoldt@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: kmip@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: Re: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance


    I tend to disagree.  I think that's because we have different views of how KMIP might be provided in products.

    I think the conformance requirement might want to specify the minimum set of things we thing all KMIP servers should support, and not the maximum set.  

    Consider this scenario, which I think is very different from what you have in mind.  Instead of a general-purpose server with software implementing KMIP, let's say my company wants to support KMIP for a specific application, and I want to provide that support in a special-purpose piece of secure hardware.  A good example is the use of KMIP to support key management for a banking application, where I would implement the necessary KMIP features in a secure HSM instead of doing it in software in a general-purpose server.  Doing KMIP in a special-purpose hardware device like this is "hard", and implementing and testing the full set if KMIP functionality would be very expensive.  If I know that the clients that will be using my device to serve keys are very limited in their requirements, I can afford to do this development - but if the KMIP standard makes it mandatory that I also implement and test all the many, many other KMIP functions that I know my clients will never use, it will probably make the job too expensive and I'll probably decide not to implement KMIP at all.  I don't think that is what we want - I think we want to define KMIP so that it will be as attractive as possible to the maximum number of people.  We want to write this so that everyone will be excited and will see how it can be used in their environment, whether that environment is general-purpose or special-purpose.  In view of that, the minimum set of required features might be those things that are necessary for a client to figure out if KMIP suits their needs or not.

    In your example scenario, you suggest that there could be a proliferation of different KMIP servers with different capabilities.  I'm not sure I agree, unless there are real reasons to have those separate implementations.  I think what might be more likely is that people would switch from a limited-function KMIP server to a broader-function KMIP server that is a superset of what they had when they only needed simpler functions.  I think vendors who develop KMIP servers might go one of two ways - they might just do the whole thing, which would let people start off with something that would meet most of their needs now and in the future, or they might offer a basic KMIP server for one price and then offer enhanced versions at extra cost (maybe even "plug-ins" to add KMIP functionality).  

    Just my views...

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Todd W. Arnold, STSM
    IBM Cryptographic Technology Development
    (704) 594-8253   FAX 594-8336
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    email:  arnoldt@us.ibm.com


    From:

    "Jay.Jacobs" <Jay.Jacobs@target.com>

    To:

    "kmip@lists.oasis-open.org" <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>

    Date:

    08/21/2009 10:23 AM

    Subject:

    [kmip] Broader View of Conformance





    I wanted to re-iterate what I talked about on the last conference call in looking at conformance at a higher level.  I have a concern that multiple server profiles will fragment adoption and increase the complexity and/or frailty of interoperability.  
     
    Here’s the scenario I’d like to avoid.  Say I purchase a KMIP conforming server for tape devices, then later purchase/upgrade some client product that also claims “KMIP Conformance” but the new client needs a different profile from the server, so I get a second key management server.  After a few iterations I may end up with several KMIP implementations across the enterprise (compounded by any added features from vendor extensions).  The end result is that my key management now looks like the picture of what KMIP is trying to solve: isolated key management instances that can only support a fraction of the clients in my network.
     
    Here’s what I would propose, a single KMIP profile for servers, that should support whatever client gets thrown at it.  This makes the server interchangeable in the network.  It will be more work to create a KMIP Server, but there shouldn’t be many of them in an enterprise anyway.  The clients are compliant only in the requests they choose to make.  If a client won’t ever request asymmetric keys, they wouldn’t have a need to support it and it would still be conforming to the standard.
     
    Thanks,
    Jay Jacobs



  • 4.  RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-21-2009 15:14

    The other very important point to this is that since we have a standard defining how KMIP works, people should be able to switch from one KMIP server product to another if they need additional functionality.

    Of course, the caveat here is that our KMIP spec leaves a lot of things up to the server designer, so they might be different in different implementations.  (For example, there are several things noted in the spec and user guide as "outside the scope", such as registration of the client with the server.)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Todd W. Arnold, STSM
    IBM Cryptographic Technology Development
    (704) 594-8253   FAX 594-8336
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    email:  arnoldt@us.ibm.com



    From: David.Lawson@Emulex.Com
    To: Todd Arnold/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS, <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>
    Date: 08/21/2009 10:55 AM
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance





    Requiring all KMIP compliant servers to implement most of the KMIP specification would raise the costs of the users requiring only a single subset of KMIP for their application. Allowing targeted profiles to support the lower cost, targeted servers, does not necessarily mean there will be a multitude of KMIP servers required. If a user requires support of a single profile, a KMIP compliant server can be purchased that supports just the one profile. If the user wishes to have a more general purpose KMIP server, he can purchase a server that supports multiple profiles, approaching the server that supports most of the KMIP specification.
     
    The user who requires, or might require in the future, can purchase the KMIP server that provides support for multiple profiles, or that can be upgraded to support multiple profiles at a later time. This would prevent the problem of having one key server for each purpose.
     
    David Lawson
    Emulex Corporation
     


  • 5.  RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-21-2009 16:21
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I can’t say I disagree with the points being made.    I think it all goes down to the goal of the I in KMIP, how interoperable do we want to make it?  Interoperable in a vertical segment or horizontal across the enterprise?  I think what we are leaning toward the former at the expense of the latter.

    The banking scenario is a valid use case.  I think if we went with one minimum server profile we may risk imposing a high cost for development and conformance or the risk of implementations splintering off from the standard.  If we implement multiple profiles we risk having a splintered standard, and multiple KMIP standards to chose from.

    One option is to limit the profiles to a very small number (2 or 3) with little-or-no option for adding more (at least in 1.0).  I think it would be important to define a full conformance profile (to the minimum as Todd mentioned) such that no subset profile will require more (to ensure fully conforming servers support all sub-profiles).   This may be improved with defining two classes of conformance being “full conformance” and the rest being “profile conformance”, so that the consumers are very aware of their purchase.

    To the comment about switching over from one KMIP Server to another, I agree with the challenges in server specific designs and I’ll add that corporate inertia may also go against changing out functioning solutions.

    Thanks,

    Jay Jacobs

    From: Todd Arnold [mailto:arnoldt@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:14 AM
    To: kmip@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance


    The other very important point to this is that since we have a standard defining how KMIP works, people should be able to switch from one KMIP server product to another if they need additional functionality.

    Of course, the caveat here is that our KMIP spec leaves a lot of things up to the server designer, so they might be different in different implementations.  (For example, there are several things noted in the spec and user guide as "outside the scope", such as registration of the client with the server.)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Todd W. Arnold, STSM
    IBM Cryptographic Technology Development
    (704) 594-8253   FAX 594-8336
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    email:  arnoldt@us.ibm.com


    From:

    David.Lawson@Emulex.Com

    To:

    Todd Arnold/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS, <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>

    Date:

    08/21/2009 10:55 AM

    Subject:

    RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance





    Requiring all KMIP compliant servers to implement most of the KMIP specification would raise the costs of the users requiring only a single subset of KMIP for their application. Allowing targeted profiles to support the lower cost, targeted servers, does not necessarily mean there will be a multitude of KMIP servers required. If a user requires support of a single profile, a KMIP compliant server can be purchased that supports just the one profile. If the user wishes to have a more general purpose KMIP server, he can purchase a server that supports multiple profiles, approaching the server that supports most of the KMIP specification.
     
    The user who requires, or might require in the future, can purchase the KMIP server that provides support for multiple profiles, or that can be upgraded to support multiple profiles at a later time. This would prevent the problem of having one key server for each purpose.
     
    David Lawson
    Emulex Corporation
     



  • 6.  RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-26-2009 02:48

    Jay,

    My intention in putting out a base symmetric key profile proposal was to allow us to come up with a minimum subset that would be "easily" testable and would not set an insurmountable first hurdle for KMIP enthusiasts.  I don't actually know of anyone that yet has an implementation of the full KMIP specification, so having an interop between several vendors to prove the "I" in KMIP may be a ways off if our first step were to be the full protocol.  That said, I can imagine a couple more profiles for symmetric keys, one that added key wrapping and one that enabled the "ROLE" part of CryptographicParameters, which may approach the banking scenario to which you referred.  But I don't have the bandwidth to work on those profiles yet.  I was hoping we could get to the full protocol via stepwise implementation and hopefully we'll be able to arrive at rough consensus on the meaningful increments.

    Bruce A Rich
    brich at-sign us dot ibm dot com



    From: "Jay.Jacobs" <Jay.Jacobs@target.com>
    To: "kmip@lists.oasis-open.org" <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>
    Date: 08/21/2009 11:21 AM
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance





    I can’t say I disagree with the points being made.    I think it all goes down to the goal of the I in KMIP, how interoperable do we want to make it?  Interoperable in a vertical segment or horizontal across the enterprise?  I think what we are leaning toward the former at the expense of the latter.
     
    The banking scenario is a valid use case.  I think if we went with one minimum server profile we may risk imposing a high cost for development and conformance or the risk of implementations splintering off from the standard.  If we implement multiple profiles we risk having a splintered standard, and multiple KMIP standards to chose from.
     
    One option is to limit the profiles to a very small number (2 or 3) with little-or-no option for adding more (at least in 1.0).  I think it would be important to define a full conformance profile (to the minimum as Todd mentioned) such that no subset profile will require more (to ensure fully conforming servers support all sub-profiles).   This may be improved with defining two classes of conformance being “full conformance” and the rest being “profile conformance”, so that the consumers are very aware of their purchase.
     
    To the comment about switching over from one KMIP Server to another, I agree with the challenges in server specific designs and I’ll add that corporate inertia may also go against changing out functioning solutions.
     
    Thanks,
    Jay Jacobs
     
    From: Todd Arnold [mailto:arnoldt@us.ibm.com]
    Sent:
    Friday, August 21, 2009 10:14 AM
    To:
    kmip@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject:
    RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

     

    The other very important point to this is that since we have a standard defining how KMIP works, people should be able to switch from one KMIP server product to another if they need additional functionality.


    Of course, the caveat here is that our KMIP spec leaves a lot of things up to the server designer, so they might be different in different implementations.  (For example, there are several things noted in the spec and user guide as "outside the scope", such as registration of the client with the server.)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Todd W. Arnold, STSM
    IBM Cryptographic Technology Development
    (704) 594-8253   FAX 594-8336
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    email:  arnoldt@us.ibm.com

    From: David.Lawson@Emulex.Com
    To: Todd Arnold/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS, <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>
    Date: 08/21/2009 10:55 AM
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

     






    Requiring all KMIP compliant servers to implement most of the KMIP specification would raise the costs of the users requiring only a single subset of KMIP for their application. Allowing targeted profiles to support the lower cost, targeted servers, does not necessarily mean there will be a multitude of KMIP servers required. If a user requires support of a single profile, a KMIP compliant server can be purchased that supports just the one profile. If the user wishes to have a more general purpose KMIP server, he can purchase a server that supports multiple profiles, approaching the server that supports most of the KMIP specification.

     
    The user who requires, or might require in the future, can purchase the KMIP server that provides support for multiple profiles, or that can be upgraded to support multiple profiles at a later time. This would prevent the problem of having one key server for each purpose.

     
    David Lawson

    Emulex Corporation

     



  • 7.  RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-26-2009 04:45
    
    
    
    
    
    Bruce, Jay,
    I could be in a small minority here, but I believe the sole minimum/base requirement for client-server interoperability should be a common messaging protocol, without requiring any specific cryptographic operations, objects, or attributes.  Any particular subset of algorithms, operations, stuctures, and metadata will apply in a particular usage domain, but not others.  And, accepted cryptographic algorithms and key sizes will change over time.
     
    If clients can be guaranteed of some minimum server communication and "query server" capabilities (perhaps at the level of ,what are the other server-supported profiles), they can easily determine whether server support for the client's intended use cases is available.  But, if common baseline messaging and server query are not mandated in the base profile, then even this level of interop is not guaranteed.
     
    Regards,
    Steve Wierenga
    HP


    From: Bruce Rich [mailto:brich@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:48 PM
    To: Jay.Jacobs
    Cc: kmip@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance


    Jay,

    My intention in putting out a base symmetric key profile proposal was to allow us to come up with a minimum subset that would be "easily" testable and would not set an insurmountable first hurdle for KMIP enthusiasts.  I don't actually know of anyone that yet has an implementation of the full KMIP specification, so having an interop between several vendors to prove the "I" in KMIP may be a ways off if our first step were to be the full protocol.  That said, I can imagine a couple more profiles for symmetric keys, one that added key wrapping and one that enabled the "ROLE" part of CryptographicParameters, which may approach the banking scenario to which you referred.  But I don't have the bandwidth to work on those profiles yet.  I was hoping we could get to the full protocol via stepwise implementation and hopefully we'll be able to arrive at rough consensus on the meaningful increments.

    Bruce A Rich
    brich at-sign us dot ibm dot com



    From: "Jay.Jacobs" <Jay.Jacobs@target.com>
    To: "kmip@lists.oasis-open.org" <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>
    Date: 08/21/2009 11:21 AM
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance





    I can’t say I disagree with the points being made.    I think it all goes down to the goal of the I in KMIP, how interoperable do we want to make it?  Interoperable in a vertical segment or horizontal across the enterprise?  I think what we are leaning toward the former at the expense of the latter.
     
    The banking scenario is a valid use case.  I think if we went with one minimum server profile we may risk imposing a high cost for development and conformance or the risk of implementations splintering off from the standard.  If we implement multiple profiles we risk having a splintered standard, and multiple KMIP standards to chose from.
     
    One option is to limit the profiles to a very small number (2 or 3) with little-or-no option for adding more (at least in 1.0).  I think it would be important to define a full conformance profile (to the minimum as Todd mentioned) such that no subset profile will require more (to ensure fully conforming servers support all sub-profiles).   This may be improved with defining two classes of conformance being “full conformance” and the rest being “profile conformance”, so that the consumers are very aware of their purchase.
     
    To the comment about switching over from one KMIP Server to another, I agree with the challenges in server specific designs and I’ll add that corporate inertia may also go against changing out functioning solutions.
     
    Thanks,
    Jay Jacobs
     
    From: Todd Arnold [mailto:arnoldt@us.ibm.com]
    Sent:
    Friday, August 21, 2009 10:14 AM
    To:
    kmip@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject:
    RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

     

    The other very important point to this is that since we have a standard defining how KMIP works, people should be able to switch from one KMIP server product to another if they need additional functionality.


    Of course, the caveat here is that our KMIP spec leaves a lot of things up to the server designer, so they might be different in different implementations.  (For example, there are several things noted in the spec and user guide as "outside the scope", such as registration of the client with the server.)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Todd W. Arnold, STSM
    IBM Cryptographic Technology Development
    (704) 594-8253   FAX 594-8336
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    email:  arnoldt@us.ibm.com

    From: David.Lawson@Emulex.Com
    To: Todd Arnold/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS, <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>
    Date: 08/21/2009 10:55 AM
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

     






    Requiring all KMIP compliant servers to implement most of the KMIP specification would raise the costs of the users requiring only a single subset of KMIP for their application. Allowing targeted profiles to support the lower cost, targeted servers, does not necessarily mean there will be a multitude of KMIP servers required. If a user requires support of a single profile, a KMIP compliant server can be purchased that supports just the one profile. If the user wishes to have a more general purpose KMIP server, he can purchase a server that supports multiple profiles, approaching the server that supports most of the KMIP specification.

     
    The user who requires, or might require in the future, can purchase the KMIP server that provides support for multiple profiles, or that can be upgraded to support multiple profiles at a later time. This would prevent the problem of having one key server for each purpose.

     
    David Lawson

    Emulex Corporation

     



  • 8.  RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-26-2009 14:27

    Steve, you may be in the minority, but I'm inclined to agree with you.  The required commonality among implementations could come down to this, in a minimalist view:

    - Common protocols so that all clients and servers know how to send and receive messages to each other.
    - Messages that allow a client to query a server to see if it supports features that client wants to use.

    (of course, if we expand to cover server-to-server that second point would also apply there.)

    I really don't see the scenario where a client tries to use a server that is not intended for its use.  Why would my client device be expecting a given server to provide it keys or other responses if that server was not intended for use in that application?  This is not all that much different from SSL, where one party can see if the other supports any ciphersuite from an acceptable set - and if not, the first party can choose not to talk to that server.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Todd W. Arnold, STSM
    IBM Cryptographic Technology Development
    (704) 594-8253   FAX 594-8336
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    email:  arnoldt@us.ibm.com



    From: "Wierenga, Steven" <steve.wierenga@hp.com>
    To: Bruce Rich/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, "Jay.Jacobs" <Jay.Jacobs@target.com>
    Cc: "kmip@lists.oasis-open.org" <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Fitzgerald, Indra" <indra.fitzgerald@hp.com>
    Date: 08/26/2009 12:45 AM
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance





    Bruce, Jay,
    I could be in a small minority here, but I believe the sole minimum/base requirement for client-server interoperability should be a common messaging protocol, without requiring any specific cryptographic operations, objects, or attributes.  Any particular subset of algorithms, operations, stuctures, and metadata will apply in a particular usage domain, but not others.  And, accepted cryptographic algorithms and key sizes will change over time.
     
    If clients can be guaranteed of some minimum server communication and "query server" capabilities (perhaps at the level of ,what are the other server-supported profiles), they can easily determine whether server support for the client's intended use cases is available.  But, if common baseline messaging and server query are not mandated in the base profile, then even this level of interop is not guaranteed.
     
    Regards,
    Steve Wierenga
    HP


  • 9.  RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

    Posted 08-26-2009 14:13
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Bruce,

      Having multiple [symmetric] profiles raises concerns .  If conformance is the minimum to meet and we’re creating multiple minimums, doesn’t it always go down to the lowest common denominator?  How would the average consumer (or non-KM vendor) understand this and work with multiple minimums?

    For example, if we create this first symmetric profile, then one supporting key wrapping and another ROLE profile, the KMIP server vendors would have to track all of these profiles and have the matrix of what profiles are supported and what isn’t.  If the consumer wants to add a client they have to pull the conformance matrix for the server and compare to what the client claims conformance to.  This gets even more complicated when a client supports two or more profiles now to support its functionality (we go back to talks of upgrading the server).  Would the profiles be in a hierarchy?   Could we assign some ordinal numbers to them such that a number “5” supports all profiles with a “4” or lower?  (this makes adding profiles later very difficult since it would affect up the scale).

     

     I’m just worried that if we fracture the standard into multiple profiles that we’d end up with the same effect as having multiple standards.   I’d really like to feel comfortable that KMIP won’t end up there.

    I hadn’t even considered the amount of work to test prototypes, and as I think about it, it’s not a negligible point.  But I think we’d see more benefit focusing on the long term impact than the impact of the roll out. 

    Thanks,

    Jay

    From: Bruce Rich [mailto:brich@us.ibm.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:48 PM
    To: Jay.Jacobs
    Cc: kmip@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance


    Jay,

    My intention in putting out a base symmetric key profile proposal was to allow us to come up with a minimum subset that would be "easily" testable and would not set an insurmountable first hurdle for KMIP enthusiasts.  I don't actually know of anyone that yet has an implementation of the full KMIP specification, so having an interop between several vendors to prove the "I" in KMIP may be a ways off if our first step were to be the full protocol.  That said, I can imagine a couple more profiles for symmetric keys, one that added key wrapping and one that enabled the "ROLE" part of CryptographicParameters, which may approach the banking scenario to which you referred.  But I don't have the bandwidth to work on those profiles yet.  I was hoping we could get to the full protocol via stepwise implementation and hopefully we'll be able to arrive at rough consensus on the meaningful increments.

    Bruce A Rich
    brich at-sign us dot ibm dot com


    From:

    "Jay.Jacobs" <Jay.Jacobs@target.com>

    To:

    "kmip@lists.oasis-open.org" <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>

    Date:

    08/21/2009 11:21 AM

    Subject:

    RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance





    I can’t say I disagree with the points being made.    I think it all goes down to the goal of the I in KMIP, how interoperable do we want to make it?  Interoperable in a vertical segment or horizontal across the enterprise?  I think what we are leaning toward the former at the expense of the latter.
     
    The banking scenario is a valid use case.  I think if we went with one minimum server profile we may risk imposing a high cost for development and conformance or the risk of implementations splintering off from the standard.  If we implement multiple profiles we risk having a splintered standard, and multiple KMIP standards to chose from.
     
    One option is to limit the profiles to a very small number (2 or 3) with little-or-no option for adding more (at least in 1.0).  I think it would be important to define a full conformance profile (to the minimum as Todd mentioned) such that no subset profile will require more (to ensure fully conforming servers support all sub-profiles).   This may be improved with defining two classes of conformance being “full conformance” and the rest being “profile conformance”, so that the consumers are very aware of their purchase.
     
    To the comment about switching over from one KMIP Server to another, I agree with the challenges in server specific designs and I’ll add that corporate inertia may also go against changing out functioning solutions.
     
    Thanks,
    Jay Jacobs
     
    From: Todd Arnold [mailto:arnoldt@us.ibm.com]
    Sent:
    Friday, August 21, 2009 10:14 AM
    To:
    kmip@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject:
    RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance

     

    The other very important point to this is that since we have a standard defining how KMIP works, people should be able to switch from one KMIP server product to another if they need additional functionality.


    Of course, the caveat here is that our KMIP spec leaves a lot of things up to the server designer, so they might be different in different implementations.  (For example, there are several things noted in the spec and user guide as "outside the scope", such as registration of the client with the server.)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Todd W. Arnold, STSM
    IBM Cryptographic Technology Development
    (704) 594-8253   FAX 594-8336
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    email:  arnoldt@us.ibm.com

    From:

    David.Lawson@Emulex.Com

    To:

    Todd Arnold/Charlotte/IBM@IBMUS, <kmip@lists.oasis-open.org>

    Date:

    08/21/2009 10:55 AM

    Subject:

    RE: [kmip] Broader View of Conformance


     






    Requiring all KMIP compliant servers to implement most of the KMIP specification would raise the costs of the users requiring only a single subset of KMIP for their application. Allowing targeted profiles to support the lower cost, targeted servers, does not necessarily mean there will be a multitude of KMIP servers required. If a user requires support of a single profile, a KMIP compliant server can be purchased that supports just the one profile. If the user wishes to have a more general purpose KMIP server, he can purchase a server that supports multiple profiles, approaching the server that supports most of the KMIP specification.

     
    The user who requires, or might require in the future, can purchase the KMIP server that provides support for multiple profiles, or that can be upgraded to support multiple profiles at a later time. This would prevent the problem of having one key server for each purpose.

     
    David Lawson

    Emulex Corporation

     



  • 10.  RE: [SPAM] - [kmip] Broader View of Conformance - Bayesian Filter detected spam

    Posted 08-21-2009 14:45
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I do not disagree with what Jay is saying.  I understand the desire to have a more full featured deployment to minimize the number of servers you might otherwise end up with.  Although I can support the more subset centric deployment even if I would prefer a global one.
     
    Going this route would be a redirection of what had been the path.  It would require that we define what constitutes the required functions, across all, that would constitute conformance.


    From: Jay.Jacobs [mailto:Jay.Jacobs@target.com]
    Sent: 2009-08-21 9:23 AM
    To: kmip@lists.oasis-open.org
    Subject: [SPAM] - [kmip] Broader View of Conformance - Bayesian Filter detected spam

    I wanted to re-iterate what I talked about on the last conference call in looking at conformance at a higher level.  I have a concern that multiple server profiles will fragment adoption and increase the complexity and/or frailty of interoperability. 

     

    Here’s the scenario I’d like to avoid.  Say I purchase a KMIP conforming server for tape devices, then later purchase/upgrade some client product that also claims “KMIP Conformance” but the new client needs a different profile from the server, so I get a second key management server.  After a few iterations I may end up with several KMIP implementations across the enterprise (compounded by any added features from vendor extensions).  The end result is that my key management now looks like the picture of what KMIP is trying to solve: isolated key management instances that can only support a fraction of the clients in my network.

     

    Here’s what I would propose, a single KMIP profile for servers, that should support whatever client gets thrown at it.  This makes the server interchangeable in the network.  It will be more work to create a KMIP Server, but there shouldn’t be many of them in an enterprise anyway.  The clients are compliant only in the requests they choose to make.  If a client won’t ever request asymmetric keys, they wouldn’t have a need to support it and it would still be conforming to the standard.

     

    Thanks,
    Jay Jacobs