OASIS XML Localisation Interchange File Format (XLIFF) TC

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Element simpleNote

  • 1.  Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-18-2011 18:55
    Hi all, I was looking at the current schema for the <simpleNote> element. Currently we can have notes in the <unit> and in the <segment> elements. And each <simpleNote> element can have an attribute appliesTo with the values being either: 'segment', 'source', 'target', or 'unit' (default is 'segment') It seems to me that we should have only three values: 'source', 'target' and something that indicates the notes applies to all children of the element where it is declared. (something like 'general' or 'undefined'), because otherwise we could have 'segment' set for a unit note or 'unit' set for a segment note (except if we define two different types of notes: one for the segment and one for the units, which is probably not a good idea.). Cheers, -yves


  • 2.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-18-2011 20:24
    Hi Yves, We could have just two values: source and target. If the attribute is not present, the note applies to the enclosing element. Regards, Rodolfo -- Rodolfo M. Raya <rmraya@maxprograms.com> Maxprograms http://www.maxprograms.com >


  • 3.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-18-2011 20:35
    Hi Rodolfo, > We could have just two values: source and target. > If the attribute is not present, the note applies to the enclosing element. Sound fine to me. -ys


  • 4.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 07:52
    Hi there,

    I wonder if we could not use its:locNote (see http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#locNote-datacat ). It would allow us to:

    1. attach notes to anything
    2. refrain from an XLIFF-specific solution

    Cheers,
    Christian




  • 5.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 09:40
    Hi Christian, We need an attribute from the XLIFF namespace to indicate the note category. The goal is to have usable XLIFF files without requiring custom extensions. Regards, Rodolfo -- Rodolfo M. Raya <rmraya@maxprograms.com> Maxprograms http://www.maxprograms.com >


  • 6.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 09:44
    Hi Rudolfo,

    Not sure that I can follow/agree with your thoughts ...

    a. Why can't we use existing standards such as W3C ITS in XLIFF? If I remember correctly, we have "Reuse" as one of our XLIFF 2.0 Mantras.

    b. W3C ITS in particular should not be considered to be a custom extension. It's a standard, and I personally would like to see as much of it as possible reused in XLIFF.

    Cheers,
    Christian




  • 7.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 11:47
    I second Christian. If XLIFF was to be complete on its own without reference to any other standards, it will never be pragmatic enough for anyone to adopt it. From:         "Lieske, Christian" <christian.lieske@sap.com> To:         "Rodolfo M. Raya" <rmraya@maxprograms.com>, "xliff@lists.oasis-open.org" <xliff@lists.oasis-open.org> Cc:         Felix Sasaki <felix.sasaki@fh-potsdam.de> Date:         07/19/2011 05:44 AM Subject:         RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote Hi Rudolfo, Not sure that I can follow/agree with your thoughts ... a. Why can't we use existing standards such as W3C ITS in XLIFF? If I remember correctly, we have "Reuse" as one of our XLIFF 2.0 Mantras. b. W3C ITS in particular should not be considered to be a custom extension. It's a standard, and I personally would like to see as much of it as possible reused in XLIFF. Cheers, Christian


  • 8.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 11:49
    I second Christian. If XLIFF was to be complete on its own without reference to any other standards, it will never be pragmatic enough for anyone to adopt it. From:         "Lieske, Christian" <christian.lieske@sap.com> To:         "Rodolfo M. Raya" <rmraya@maxprograms.com>, "xliff@lists.oasis-open.org" <xliff@lists.oasis-open.org> Cc:         Felix Sasaki <felix.sasaki@fh-potsdam.de> Date:         07/19/2011 05:44 AM Subject:         RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote Hi Rudolfo, Not sure that I can follow/agree with your thoughts ... a. Why can't we use existing standards such as W3C ITS in XLIFF? If I remember correctly, we have "Reuse" as one of our XLIFF 2.0 Mantras. b. W3C ITS in particular should not be considered to be a custom extension. It's a standard, and I personally would like to see as much of it as possible reused in XLIFF. Cheers, Christian


  • 9.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 12:18
    You can decorate an XLIFF file with ITS parts today. I don’t think that possibility to use ITS in XLIFF had any significant impact in the adoption of XLIFF.   The use of third party extensions in XLIFF 1.2 is a major cause of interoperability issues. I don’t want this problem to persist in XLIFF 2.0   Regards, Rodolfo -- Rodolfo M. Raya   <rmraya@maxprograms.com> Maxprograms      http://www.maxprograms.com   From: Helena S Chapman [mailto:hchapman@us.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 8:49 AM To: Lieske, Christian Cc: Felix Sasaki; Rodolfo M. Raya; xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote   I second Christian. If XLIFF was to be complete on its own without reference to any other standards, it will never be pragmatic enough for anyone to adopt it. From:         "Lieske, Christian" < christian.lieske@sap.com > To:         "Rodolfo M. Raya" < rmraya@maxprograms.com >, " xliff@lists.oasis-open.org " < xliff@lists.oasis-open.org > Cc:         Felix Sasaki < felix.sasaki@fh-potsdam.de > Date:         07/19/2011 05:44 AM Subject:         RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote Hi Rudolfo, Not sure that I can follow/agree with your thoughts ... a. Why can't we use existing standards such as W3C ITS in XLIFF? If I remember correctly, we have "Reuse" as one of our XLIFF 2.0 Mantras. b. W3C ITS in particular should not be considered to be a custom extension. It's a standard, and I personally would like to see as much of it as possible reused in XLIFF. Cheers, Christian


  • 10.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 12:46
    > The use of third party extensions in XLIFF 1.2 > is a major cause of interoperability issues. I would qualify this a bit more: Using extensions to provide missing v1.2 features or badly-designed existing v1.2 features is an v1.2 problem not an extension problem. Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they would be banned if they implement something that supplement the existing features. Also, it's not because an element or an attribute belongs to a different namespace (e.g. ITS) that it is an "extension". We already do use several namespaces in the current XLIFF 2.0 core: xml:lang and xml:space for example. It may be a special case (we don't have to declare the extra namespace), but it's still something similar. But I think we don't want to go all the other way either and allow any ITS elements indiscriminately. Maybe some features make sense to be defined using ITS, while other should be in the XLIFF namespace. For example: I don't think our translate='no' could be replaced by its:translate='no', because the scope is different (ours implies <target>, ITS' means all children). The bottom line is that we should allow only one 'proper' way to implement each feature. -ys


  • 11.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 13:18
    " Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they would be banned if they implement something that supplement the existing features." Agreed. And the premise is also, XLIFF should not try to "scope creep" all possible modules as a stand-alone standard if there are other open supplemental standards. In response to Rodolfo's note, if the interoperability issues are on the supplemental standard, it is our job to contribute to the standard owner changes required. No different than how we would expect our user community to tell us what mistakes we have made with XLIFF. From:         Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> To:         <xliff@lists.oasis-open.org> Date:         07/19/2011 08:46 AM Subject:         RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote > The use of third party extensions in XLIFF 1.2 > is a major cause of interoperability issues. I would qualify this a bit more: Using extensions to provide missing v1.2 features or badly-designed existing v1.2 features is an v1.2 problem not an extension problem. Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they would be banned if they implement something that supplement the existing features. Also, it's not because an element or an attribute belongs to a different namespace (e.g. ITS) that it is an "extension". We already do use several namespaces in the current XLIFF 2.0 core: xml:lang and xml:space for example. It may be a special case (we don't have to declare the extra namespace), but it's still something similar. But I think we don't want to go all the other way either and allow any ITS elements indiscriminately. Maybe some features make sense to be defined using ITS, while other should be in the XLIFF namespace. For example: I don't think our translate='no' could be replaced by its:translate='no', because the scope is different (ours implies <target>, ITS' means all children). The bottom line is that we should allow only one 'proper' way to implement each feature. -ys --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php


  • 12.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 13:45
    Using an entire standard as a supplement to XLIFF is quite different than using a couple of elements or features from another standard. If we started using one or two elements from ITS, a couple from TBX, a couple from SRX, a couple from TMX, etc., then XLIFF would quickly become overly complex. If any of those standards changed how those items were defined, XLIFF would be impacted and possibly have to implement its own function to maintain continuity. The more self-contained XLIFF is, the more usable and flexible it can be. David Corporate Globalization Tool Development EMail: waltersd@us.ibm.com Phone: (507) 253-7278, T/L:553-7278, Fax: (507) 253-1721 CHKPII: http://w3-03.ibm.com/globalization/page/2011 TM file formats: http://w3-03.ibm.com/globalization/page/2083 TM markups: http://w3-03.ibm.com/globalization/page/2071 Helena S Chapman---07/19/2011 08:24:30 AM---"Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they wo From: Helena S Chapman/San Jose/IBM@IBMUS To: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Date: 07/19/2011 08:24 AM Subject: RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote " Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they would be banned if they implement something that supplement the existing features." Agreed. And the premise is also, XLIFF should not try to "scope creep" all possible modules as a stand-alone standard if there are other open supplemental standards. In response to Rodolfo's note, if the interoperability issues are on the supplemental standard, it is our job to contribute to the standard owner changes required. No different than how we would expect our user community to tell us what mistakes we have made with XLIFF. From: Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> To: <xliff@lists.oasis-open.org> Date: 07/19/2011 08:46 AM Subject: RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote > The use of third party extensions in XLIFF 1.2 > is a major cause of interoperability issues. I would qualify this a bit more: Using extensions to provide missing v1.2 features or badly-designed existing v1.2 features is an v1.2 problem not an extension problem. Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they would be banned if they implement something that supplement the existing features. Also, it's not because an element or an attribute belongs to a different namespace (e.g. ITS) that it is an "extension". We already do use several namespaces in the current XLIFF 2.0 core: xml:lang and xml:space for example. It may be a special case (we don't have to declare the extra namespace), but it's still something similar. But I think we don't want to go all the other way either and allow any ITS elements indiscriminately. Maybe some features make sense to be defined using ITS, while other should be in the XLIFF namespace. For example: I don't think our translate='no' could be replaced by its:translate='no', because the scope is different (ours implies <target>, ITS' means all children). The bottom line is that we should allow only one 'proper' way to implement each feature. -ys --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php


  • 13.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 14:32
    Hi Yves and David,   I agree with both of you.   Cheers, Christian   From: David Walters [mailto:waltersd@us.ibm.com] Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2011 15:45 To: Helena S Chapman Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote   Using an entire standard as a supplement to XLIFF is quite different than using a couple of elements or features from another standard. If we started using one or two elements from ITS, a couple from TBX, a couple from SRX, a couple from TMX, etc., then XLIFF would quickly become overly complex. If any of those standards changed how those items were defined, XLIFF would be impacted and possibly have to implement its own function to maintain continuity. The more self-contained XLIFF is, the more usable and flexible it can be. David Corporate Globalization Tool Development EMail: waltersd@us.ibm.com Phone: (507) 253-7278, T/L:553-7278, Fax: (507) 253-1721 CHKPII: http://w3-03.ibm.com/globalization/page/2011 TM file formats: http://w3-03.ibm.com/globalization/page/2083 TM markups: http://w3-03.ibm.com/globalization/page/2071 Helena S Chapman---07/19/2011 08:24:30 AM---"Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they wo From: Helena S Chapman/San Jose/IBM@IBMUS To: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org Date: 07/19/2011 08:24 AM Subject: RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote " Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they would be banned if they implement something that supplement the existing features." Agreed. And the premise is also, XLIFF should not try to "scope creep" all possible modules as a stand-alone standard if there are other open supplemental standards. In response to Rodolfo's note, if the interoperability issues are on the supplemental standard, it is our job to contribute to the standard owner changes required. No different than how we would expect our user community to tell us what mistakes we have made with XLIFF. From: Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> To: <xliff@lists.oasis-open.org> Date: 07/19/2011 08:46 AM Subject: RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote > The use of third party extensions in XLIFF 1.2 > is a major cause of interoperability issues. I would qualify this a bit more: Using extensions to provide missing v1.2 features or badly-designed existing v1.2 features is an v1.2 problem not an extension problem. Extensions are evil if they try to implement an existing feature of XLIFF. I don't see why they would be banned if they implement something that supplement the existing features. Also, it's not because an element or an attribute belongs to a different namespace (e.g. ITS) that it is an "extension". We already do use several namespaces in the current XLIFF 2.0 core: xml:lang and xml:space for example. It may be a special case (we don't have to declare the extra namespace), but it's still something similar. But I think we don't want to go all the other way either and allow any ITS elements indiscriminately. Maybe some features make sense to be defined using ITS, while other should be in the XLIFF namespace. For example: I don't think our translate='no' could be replaced by its:translate='no', because the scope is different (ours implies <target>, ITS' means all children). The bottom line is that we should allow only one 'proper' way to implement each feature. -ys --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php


  • 14.  The big question of XLIFF scope: Was: Re: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 12:49
    After seeing Helena ??s mail, I must confess that it brings up an area of some concern for me in the potential direction of XLIFF. I know there is at least some support for adding optional modules to deal with segmentation, translation memory, and terminology management (I'm not certain of this list is complete) in order to make XLIFF more self-contained. There is also a proposal to allow XLIFF files to be multilingual (n ?¥ 2) rather than strictly bilingual (n = 2). I understand that the goal of the first proposal is to lessen XLIFF ??s dependence on custom extensions that impede interoperability, but I am concerned that this course of action may have considerable negative consequences, whatever technical merits it may have. In particular, I have the following concerns: More modules makes XLIFF more complex . I keep running into the perception in the community that XLIFF already tries to do too much and that the lack of a single flavor of XLIFF that works with all tools is a big problem. If we add more features (even if they are optional), it will only exacerbate the problem. Declaring the modules to be optional seems, on the surface, like a good way to deal with this issue, but what happens if a major vendor starts producing XLIFF files that rely on these extensions to be usable? Are they then really optional anymore if interoperability is the goal? If not, then interoperability it harmed by these features. While we might say that this won't happen ??because our design skills will result in something that can be processed without using those modules or because we will provide guidelines on how to avoid problems ??we already know that implementers do not follow the standard properly as it exists today. Adding more modules (and the semi-exponential increase in complexity that might arise from the potential interactions between them) would have a tendency to make this problem of inconsistent implementations worse. Competing XLIFF modules vs. stand-alone standards . If we build in these modules and they differ from other standards (TMX, TBX, SRX) in philosophy or functionality, we then create two ways to do the same thing: the XLIFF way and the non-XLIFF way. This shift will only increase standards fragmentation. This is not just a problem in that it might force developers to choose between two different approaches, but it also would stand in the way of interoperability in heterogeneous supply chains. If, for example, a production chain uses TMX at one point for TM purposes but another point uses XLIFF and the TMX and XLIFF TM modules differ in some way, will this cause interoperability problems because the data assumed/generated at each point is different? Again, we might assume that we can work our way around any such problem, but how will we know that we have before it is too late? Given the huge number of potential interactions between tools, I would actually suggest that we cannot actually know that our decisions will not cause problems. Massive expansion of XLIFF scope . Including these module would mean a significant change in scope for XLIFF. I realize that the recent XLIFF survey was designed to gauge support for such a move, but the survey also provided no way for respondents to understand what those courses of action mean in practical terms. So if we do expand the scope, I think this needs to be brought to the attention of the community in more detail. This is not something that can be reduced to a poll question since most people would not know, from the poll question, what the implications (pro and con) are. While polls are valuable, they are only as good as the knowledge of those responding. It may be that expanding the scope of XLIFF is a good idea in the abstract, but it is the practical details that will make it sink or float. My preference for how to handle the need for these modules would be to look at using namespaces and references to other, independent, standards. I realize that there may be issues with those standards that right now make them unsuitable for XLIFF ??s purposes, but I think the proper approach is to try to influence those standards (send feedback to ETSI, or have OASIS propose to create a TC for one or more of the standards in cooperation with ETSI) for future versions or to define compatible subsets (you could define an XLIFF-compatible XCS file for TBX, for instance). Doing so would ensure that we don ??t end up splintering the standards environment and would help unify the current situation. By contrast, the second proposal, to allow XLIFF to be multilingual, would have my full support. I think it makes sense to allow for that to happen. I realize that this change moves XLIFF more in the direction of TM, but it also fits entirely with what I see as the core functions of XLIFF. I think it's obvious that I am skeptical (at the least) of the increase in scope and additional of modules, but I have to always admit that I may be wrong. However, I think these issues are so crucial that we need to bring them up explicitly to the broader community, not just to XLIFF insiders.  As a result, I would like to invite someone from the committee who is in favor of the expanse in scope to outline the argument in favor of making these changes and I would volunteer to help push that message out to the broader community, paired with my concerns, to try to foster an open dialogue about some issues. The more the broader community is aware of such issues (fleshed out, not reduced to a poll question), the more likely we are to get good feedback that hits the core issues. Lest anyone think that I would be trying to control the process too much, I would invite the dialogue about the precise message (my part and the arguments in favor) to take place on this list until we reach consensus before I send it out to the mailing lists I have access to. Best, Arle On Jul 19, 2011, at 07:48 , Helena S Chapman wrote: I second Christian. If XLIFF was to be complete on its own without reference to any other standards, it will never be pragmatic enough for anyone to adopt it.


  • 15.  RE: [xliff] Element simpleNote

    Posted 07-19-2011 12:15
    > a. Why can't we use existing standards such as W3C ITS in XLIFF? > If I remember correctly, we have "Reuse" as one of our XLIFF > 2.0 Mantras. If we go with ITS, for a "simple note" we can use the its:locNote attribute without anything else. It goes on the element you want to annotate. We could still control which elements allow it or not using the schema. If we were to match the current locations we would allow its:locNote on <segment>, <unit>, <source> and <target>. Two possible drawbacks: 1) An attribute value cannot have a rich content (formatting, multi paragraphs, etc.) But maybe that is not an issue with a *simple* note. 2) Since all the <source> (or <target>) elements have no common parent (they have a common grand-parent), we would not be able to assign a note to all source or all target at once by specifying it in <unit>. On ITS overall: I would think twice before using any XPath-based options. The main issue with this is that it pretty much forces the use of a DOM-based parser for XLIFF, which could be a problem with large documents. Cheers, -ys