OASIS Web Services Interactive Applications TC

RE: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient Entities

  • 1.  RE: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient Entities

    Posted 06-17-2002 20:06
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    Subject: RE: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient Entities


    
    My opinion is that we should explicitly allow the consumer to create
    sessions. This is simple and clear.
    
    Best regards
    Carsten Leue
    
    -------
    Dr. Carsten Leue
    Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B�blingen , Germany
    Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
    
    
    
    |---------+---------------------------->
    |         |           Rex Brooks       |
    |         |           <rexb@starbourne.|
    |         |           com>             |
    |         |                            |
    |         |           06/13/2002 05:53 |
    |         |           AM               |
    |         |           Please respond to|
    |         |           Rex Brooks       |
    |         |                            |
    |---------+---------------------------->
      >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
      |                                                                                                                                             |
      |       To:       Eilon Reshef <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com>, "'Rex Brooks'" <rexb@starbourne.com>, wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,                |
      |        wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org                                                                                                            |
      |       cc:                                                                                                                                   |
      |       Subject:  RE: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient Entities                                                                   |
      |                                                                                                                                             |
      |                                                                                                                                             |
      >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    
    
    
    I hope we hear a few more opinions. I'm not clear that this makes the
    interface simpler. If it does and we get consensus on it, I'll be happy to
    go along with it. I agree with Rich for this version.
    
    Rex
    
    
    At 9:09 PM -0400 6/12/02, Eilon Reshef wrote:
          Rex,
    
          We are all trying to simplify the interface. If we can achieve the
          same results (namely, Portlet Grouping/Scoping) without the need to
          have an explicit interface for creating sessions, we are all better
          off.
    
          Eilon
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
                Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:39 PM
                To: Eilon Reshef; wsia@lists.oasis-open.org;
                wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                Subject: RE: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient
                Entities
                I think we are already getting down to too much micromanaging.
                Why should I care how a producer manages their portlets,
                transient entities or any combinations thereof in one of my
                sessions? As long as I get back what I ask for, I don't see
                what difference it makes.
    
                Ciao,
                Rex
    
    
                At 6:53 PM -0400 6/12/02, Eilon Reshef wrote:
                      Wouldn't it be easier to just pass a key (say:
                      portlet-group-id), that allows the Producer to manage
                      this more carefully than providing access to a low-level
                      mechanism such a session?
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
                            Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:27 PM
                            To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org;
                            wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                            Subject: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and
                            Transient Entities
    
                            I would agree that supporting explicit creation of
                            sessions is easy means
                            for a Consumer to indicate an arbitrary grouping
                            that it would like to
                            establish. As the Producer is ultimately managing
                            the sessions, it can
                            always enforce whatever policies it would like on
                            these groupings. I would
                            recommend that this version of the spec not try and
                            define how a Producer
                            could expose such policies to the Consumer, though
                            we may want to revisit
                            this question for future versions of the spec if
                            scenarios are defined that
                            demonstrate value to the Consumer in knowing the
                            Producer's policies.
    
    
    
                                                  "MICHAEL.FREEDMAN"
    
                                                  <MICHAEL.FREEDMAN@        To:
                            wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,
                            wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                                                  oracle.com>               cc:
    
    
                            Subject:  Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient
                            Entities
                                                  06/12/2002 10:58
    
                                                  AM
    
    
    
    
                            Irs not so much a bother to allow rather its a no
                            reason to prevent.  If a
                            consumer wants to support such a thing they should
                            be free to do so as this
                            would allow arbitrary groupings (from the
                            perspective of the producer).
    
                                  -Mike-
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                                  face="Trebuchet MS" color=#0000ff>If a simple
                            group-id within the
                                  portlet UI
                                  takes care of the issue (which I agree with),
                            why bother to allow the
                                  Consumer
                                  to create and manage sessions explicitly
                            (versus implicit creation by
                                  the
                                  Producer)?
                                  class=122592900-12062002>
                                  class=122592900-12062002> -----Original
                            Message-----
                                  From:
                                  Michael Freedman [
                            mailto:Michael.Freedman@oracle.com]
                                  Sent: Tuesday,
                                  June 11, 2002 7:43 PM
                                  To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org;
                                  wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                                  Subject: Re: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient
                                  Entities
    
                                        Eilon,
                                          I think your
                                        suggestion intermixes 2 different
                            concepts -- that of session
                                        identity and
                                        that of instance/entity identity.  My
                            scenario 1 concerns
                                        itself with how
                                        an instance/entity id can be used to
                            segment data within a
                                        session.  My
                                        scenario 2 concerns itself with how
                            distinct sessions can be
                                        established/maintained.  I suggested we
                            don't define a way for
                                        the
                                        producer to describe its grouping
                            rules.  Rather a consumer can
                                        choose to
                                        support grouping (via a mechanism its
                            free to define) or leave
                                        it up to the
                                        consumer to handle internally (via
                            perference/configuration
                                        data).  So in
                                        my scenario 2, a consumer isn't
                            responsible for separating the
                                        portlets into
                                        different sessions.  It merely is
                            allowed to do so.  Portlets
                                        must
                                        assume they aren't running in such
                            environments -- rather they
                                        must assume
                                        they run in a shared session world --
                            hence they need an ID to
                                        do the proper
                                        namespacing.  As the consumer doesn't
                            know this grouping
                                        (because it
                                        doesn't implement grouping) the
                            producer must provide its own
                                        UI for getting
                                        these keys -- i.e. the producer must
                            provide a
                                        configuration/personalization
                                        UI that allows a group key to be
                            specified for each of its
                                        portlets -- it can
                                        then use this "internal" group id to
                            key/separate data in the
                                        shared session.
    
                                        Just a long way of saying -- I don't
                            buy your scenario 2.  If
                                        the
                                        consumer knows the grouping, I would
                            rather the consumer
                                        maintain 2 discrete
                                        sessions as this allows it to continue
                            to pass the entity id so
                                        each entity
                                        can maintain entity specific data if
                            necessary (i.e. portlet A,
                                        B, B' in the
                                        same session/group -- B and B' can keep
                            their data separate).
                                        If the
                                        consumer doesn't know the grouping then
                            it controls things just
                                        like scenario
                                        1.  The producer is free to
                            define/manage finer granularity as
                                        described
                                        above.
                                             -Mike-
    
                                        Eilon Reshef wrote:
                                                face="Trebuchet MS">Mike,
                            class=731155222-11062002>
                                              face="Trebuchet MS">Per your
                            recent e-mails, I think that
                                              the
                                              approach makes sense.
                            class=731155222-11062002> face
                                              ="Trebuchet MS">The only thing
                            that concerns me is that
                                              we
                                              have two different mechanisms to
                            handle what would seem
                                              to be a very similar
                                              scenario.
                            class=731155222-11062002>Scenario 1:
                                              If there are two occurrences of a
                            single portlet on a
                                              page, then as
                                              you described it the portlet is
                            responsible for
                                              segregating the
                                              occurrence-specific information,
                            using an additional key
                                              provided by the
                                              portal.
                            class=731155222-11062002>Scenario 2:
                                              If there are two occurrences of a
                            pair of portlets, then
                                              suddenly the
                                              portal is responsible for
                            segregating the two pairs by
                                              placing them in two
                                              separate sessions.
                            class=731155222-11062002> face
                                              ="Trebuchet MS">(All, of course,
                            assuming that the
                                              portlets use sessions)
                            class=731155222-11062002> face
                                              ="Trebuchet MS">The idea of the
                            Consumer creating and
                                              managing the segregation keys has
                            the
                                              scalability advantage that you
                            mentioned.
                                              class=731155222-11062002>
                            class=731155222-11062002> face
                                              ="Trebuchet MS">Can't we use it
                            to handle both
                                              scenarios?
                            class=731155222-11062002>
                                              class=731155222-11062002> size
                            =-1>Namely:
                                              class=731155222-11062002>
                            class=731155222-11062002> face
                                              ="Trebuchet MS">In scenario 1,
                            where there's portlets A1
                                              and A2, then the portal sends a
                            key "1" when displaying
                                              A1 and a key "2"
                                              when displaying A2.
                            class=731155222-11062002> face
                                              ="Trebuchet MS">In scenario 2,
                            when there's portlet pairs
                                              <A1, B1> and <A2, B2>, then the
                            portal sends a key "1"
                                              when
                                              displaying A1 and B1 and the key
                            "2" when displaying A2
                                              and
                                              B2. class=731155222-11062002>
                            class=731155222-11062002>
                                              This would
                                              allow the Producer to create and
                            manage the session id
                                              (and maybe even
                                              create them only when needed,
                            instead of explicitly
                                              creating them up-front
                                              as the current draft suggests).
                            The Consumer only has to
                                              take into account
                                              that it may receive (and needs to
                            re-send) a separate
                                              session id for each
                                              one of the keys.
                            class=731155222-11062002>
                                              class=731155222-11062002> face
                            ="Trebuchet MS">Eilon
                                              class=731155222-11062002>
                            class=731155222-11062002>
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
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