OASIS Darwin Information Typing Architecture (DITA) TC

  • 1.  Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 15:45 
    Hello,

Going through the review comments to the specification, I found that
somebody asked for examples of how  should be processed. Generally, we
try to stay away from processing behaviors, but this one may be an
exception. The current description gives no suggestions as to whether or
not quotes should be generated. I checked the HTML 4.01 specification to
see what they say; that specification says that q must be rendered with
quotations, and that users should not add their own quotes. It goes on to
say that the quotes should be rendered in a language-sensitive manner. See
the section on rendering quotations:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#edef-Q

Should we make a similar statement? I do not want to add behaviors that
MUST be done without consulting the full TC, so - this is my consultation.

Thanks -

Robert D Anderson
IBM Authoring Tools Development
Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit


  • 2.  RE: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 16:00 
    I'd rather not say this.  It's a style question that
may differ from one house to another as to whether
they want to author the quotes or not and/or how the
quote is to be presented.

The determination of what text may be generated for
a given element in a given context and/or what other
formatting it gets for a given output (e.g., one may
format things differently for PDF output and HTML
output) should be left to the style specification,
however such is provided to a given composition system.
This is outside the scope of the DITA specification.

So the answer to how  should be processed is that
it should be processed however its style specification
indicates for a given application.

paul

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  • 3.  RE: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 16:04 
    Hi Paul,

I accept your view. I think we should provide a suggested behavior,
particularly in this case where authors may or may not type the
quotation marks themselves. I agree we should not say it MUST do this --
but many readers of the spec have asked for suggested processing
behavior, because they simply don't know any better. So I'm OK writing
this as a suggested, or sample, processing scenario.

Gershon


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 4.  RE: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 17:48 
    This could be in the form of a recommendation against additional
quotation marks, coupled with the observation that if you do elect to
add your own quote marks, you must of course not render ... as
quotation marks, and that there is an overhead cost for localization and
portability (one of Gershon's points). 

Of course


  • 5.  RE: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 18:38 
    But the point is that a user cannot do anything about
browser behavior, so it is appropriate for that to be
standardized.

However a user is supposed to be in charge of what style
is applied to their DITA content.  A large part of the 
whole thrust of SGML/XML and structured content for 
decades has been the separation of format (and other
application-specific processing) from the content.
This improves reusability and makes localization
easier (because different uses and locales can apply
different stylesheets to the same content).

It is wrong for the DITA standard to be standardizing
format or any behavior beyond the basics that make
DITA DITA.

If we start talking about how to format the  element,
then where do we stop?  I don't see that we need to say
anything here about format in the DITA language reference.
We aren't supposed to be documenting how the toolkit
formats DITA, we're supposed to be writing a specification
for how to create DITA content.

paul

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  • 6.  Re: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 20:30 
    But we have established that there are some basic rendition expectations
that need to be defined as at least expected default behaviors, such as
enumeration of ordered lists and whatnot. I don't see why having 
generate quotes is not clearly in that same category.

Of course we should not mandate that as the only allowed behavior, but I
think having it be the expected default behavior is entirely appropriate and
consistent both with the original design intent and typical user
expectation.

Cheers,

E.

On 1/6/09 12:37 PM, "Grosso, Paul"


  • 7.  RE: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-07-2009 02:39 
    Hi, Paul,

There are two parts to your objection. I'll respond to the second one
first.

Quotation marks have exactly the same semantic value as  does. They
are the conventional plain-text way of tagging a stretch of content
(with begin and end tags yet) as material that is quoted. For that
reason, this is not rendering in the usual sense, it is substitution of
a different notational variant for the same semantic function. 

This provides a principled demarcation, in answer to your question
"where do we stop?". 

But, you might say, , , and  are not just typographic elements
(though we call them such), they are notational variants for typographic
conventions of bold face, italic, and underscore, with corresponding
semantics. The rejoinder here is that they are not notational variants,
but rather indeed just typographic rendering, because there are no begin
and end tags. In this, I believe that quotation marks are unique.

To emphasize the point, note that for


  • 8.  RE: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 16:01 
    Hi Robert,

Since  is based on the XHTML spec, I think it's fitting to suggest an
implementation the way they do. In all projects I've been involved with,
I have insisted that the stylesheets render the quotation marks, and
that the authors must not insert them. This makes them portable to other
locales, and reduces the authoring workload.

I'm in favor of using the W3C wording for this element.

Regards,
Gershon 


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 9.  RE: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 16:09 
    Hi Robert,
I think it wise to add a note about processing although not indicate
that it is a requirement. Many users do not know the history of these
elements. Following the HTML guidelines seems like a good choice for an
explanation with the proviso that the result they may get will be
dependent on their style sheet.

JoAnn

JoAnn Hackos PhD
President
Comtech Services, Inc.
joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com
Skype joannhackos



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 10.  RE: [dita] Behavior of

    Posted 01-06-2009 22:23 
    I would like to add a few thoughts to this interesting discussion.

A related problem is the position of a full stop (period) in relation to the
inverted commas. In US English, the full stop in a quotation embedded within
a sentence is placed inside the inverted commas; in other forms of English
the punctuation is outside the inverted commas. Hard-coding the inverted
commas may create a localisation issue. Also, to be semantically correct,
should the coding be:
	He said three of them.
with the processing placing the period inside the quote marks if required? I
believe it should, and this supports the argument that quotation marks
should not be hard-coded by the author.

Another issue is whether single quotes or double quotes should be used for
quotations. If the text is hard-coded with a particular style of mark, it
can't be easily switched in the processing. 

In "The Elements of International Style", Edmond Weiss addressed the issue
of punctuation in quotations. His conclusion was: "The better path, however,
is to use other conventions for highlighting: alternate typefaces or fonts,
boldface, italics, shading, or color. Such devices must be used consistently
and with restraint, but they have the power to eliminate most quotation
marks and, thereby, to eliminate a continuing distraction from international
documents.".

In conclusion, for interoperability, punctuation marks in quotations should
be omitted by the user. For the reason of separation of content and form,
likewise. For reasons of internationalisation, likewise.

Tony Self



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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