OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

For accessibility purposes the AccSC
needs to know if all ODF charts are *always* backed by a table.  (Tables
are accessible and easier to navigate and interpret.)  Due to the
use of the word "may" in sections 10.2 and 10.3 of the spec,
it's not clear that all charts are *always" backed by a table.  Could
someone please clarify this?  Does the text need to be touched up?

10.2 Introduction to Chart Documents
Chart documents are always contained
within other XML documents. There are two types of chart container documents:

Documents that do not provide data for
the chart: The chart data is contained in a <table:table> element
inside the <chart:chart> element.
Documents that provide data for the
chart: The chart data *may
be* contained in a <table:table>
element in the parent document, for example, in a spreadsheet or text document.

10.3 <chart:chart>
The <chart:chart>  element
represents an entire chart, including titles, a legend, and the graphical
object that visualizes the underlying data called the plot area. The data
underlying the chart is represented by a table element. This element *may
also exist*
for embedded charts that get the data from the container document. In that
case the chart can be rendered without getting the data from the container
document.

Thanks,

Pete Brunet

                    
                     
                     
         

IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development

11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758

Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155

Ionosphere: WS4G

Hi, I have not yet received a response
from the TC.


Pete Brunet

                    
                     
                     
         

IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development

11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758

Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155

Ionosphere: WS4G







Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS

08/01/2008 04:29 PM




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office@lists.oasis-open.org


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Subject
[office] Are all charts always backed
by a table?








For accessibility purposes the AccSC needs to know if all ODF charts are
*always* backed by a table.  (Tables are accessible and easier to
navigate and interpret.)  Due to the use of the word "may"
in sections 10.2 and 10.3 of the spec, it's not clear that all charts are
*always" backed by a table.  Could someone please clarify this?
 Does the text need to be touched up?



10.2 Introduction to Chart Documents 

Chart documents are always contained within other XML documents. There
are two types of chart container documents: 

Documents that do not provide data for
the chart: The chart data is contained in a <table:table> element
inside the <chart:chart> element. 
Documents that provide data for the
chart: The chart data *may
be* contained in a <table:table>
element in the parent document, for example, in a spreadsheet or text document.


10.3 <chart:chart> 

The <chart:chart>  element represents an entire chart, including
titles, a legend, and the graphical object that visualizes the underlying
data called the plot area. The data underlying the chart is represented
by a table element. This element *may
also exist*
for embedded charts that get the data from the container document. In that
case the chart can be rendered without getting the data from the container
document.



Thanks,

Pete Brunet

                    
                     
                     
        

IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development

11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758

Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155

Ionosphere: WS4G

Pete,

I can't speak for the TC but I do think that charts are always backed by 
a table.

I base that on the language in 10.2 that reads:

> The chart data is specified by the |

Hi, I have not yet received a response
from the TC.


Pete Brunet

                    
                     
                     
         

IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development

11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758

Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155

Ionosphere: WS4G







Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS

08/01/2008 04:29 PM




To
office@lists.oasis-open.org


cc



Subject
[office] Are all charts always backed
by a table?








For accessibility purposes the AccSC needs to know if all ODF charts are
*always* backed by a table.  (Tables are accessible and easier to
navigate and interpret.)  Due to the use of the word "may"
in sections 10.2 and 10.3 of the spec, it's not clear that all charts are
*always" backed by a table.  Could someone please clarify this?
 Does the text need to be touched up?



10.2 Introduction to Chart Documents 

Chart documents are always contained within other XML documents. There
are two types of chart container documents: 

Documents that do not provide data for
the chart: The chart data is contained in a <table:table> element
inside the <chart:chart> element. 
Documents that provide data for the
chart: The chart data *may
be* contained in a <table:table>
element in the parent document, for example, in a spreadsheet or text document.


10.3 <chart:chart> 

The <chart:chart>  element represents an entire chart, including
titles, a legend, and the graphical object that visualizes the underlying
data called the plot area. The data underlying the chart is represented
by a table element. This element *may
also exist*
for embedded charts that get the data from the container document. In that
case the chart can be rendered without getting the data from the container
document.



Thanks,

Pete Brunet

                    
                     
                     
        

IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development

11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758

Voice: (512) 838-4594, Cell: (512) 689-4155

Ionosphere: WS4G

Hi Pete,

On Friday, 2008-08-01 16:29:31 -0500, Pete Brunet wrote:

> For accessibility purposes the AccSC needs to know if all ODF charts are 
> *always* backed by a table.  (Tables are accessible and easier to navigate 
> and interpret.)  Due to the use of the word "may" in sections 10.2 and 
> 10.3 of the spec, it's not clear that all charts are *always" backed by a 
> table.  Could someone please clarify this?  Does the text need to be 
> touched up?

For accessibility purposes it is not sufficient to read out the data of
one entire table. A chart may have several data series represented as

Eike,

Eike Rathke wrote:
> Hi Pete,
>
> On Friday, 2008-08-01 16:29:31 -0500, Pete Brunet wrote:
>
>   
>> For accessibility purposes the AccSC needs to know if all ODF charts are 
>> *always* backed by a table.  (Tables are accessible and easier to navigate 
>> and interpret.)  Due to the use of the word "may" in sections 10.2 and 
>> 10.3 of the spec, it's not clear that all charts are *always" backed by a 
>> table.  Could someone please clarify this?  Does the text need to be 
>> touched up?
>>     
>
> For accessibility purposes it is not sufficient to read out the data of
> one entire table. A chart may have several data series represented as
> 

Hi Patrick,

On Tuesday, 2008-08-12 09:52:58 -0400, Patrick Durusau wrote:

>> On Friday, 2008-08-01 16:29:31 -0500, Pete Brunet wrote:
>>
>>   
>>> For accessibility purposes the AccSC needs to know if all ODF charts 
>>> are *always* backed by a table.
>>> [...]
>>
>> For accessibility purposes it is not sufficient to read out the data of
>> one entire table.
>> [...]
>>   
> Sorry, I am missing the import of your statement:
>
> "For accessibility purposes it is not sufficient to read out the data of  
> one entire table."
>
> I agree with your statements about pointing to cell ranges but don't  
> know how that affects accessibility?

Pete asked because of "accessibility purposes". I just wanted to point
out that chart data does not necessarily originate from one table or one
contiguous area in one table. I may have misunderstood his request
though.

> Can you clarify the accessibility aspects of addressing multiple  
> cell-ranges for a chart?

IMHO there are no special accessibility aspects except the fact that
various elements of a chart may pull their data from different regions
of a document.

  Eike

-- 
 OpenOffice.org / StarOffice Calc core developer and i18n transpositionizer.
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Hi Patrick, Eike,


To clarify - the issue is that the state of the art in providing blind
access to things like charts and graphs is to provide access to the
underlying data that is driving the charts/graphs (rather than trying
to provide access to the visual representation).  If a particular
chart/graph is driven from multiple ranges of cells in multiple table,
so be it.  So long as we have a reasonable means of enabling users (and
their assistive technology user agents) to directly get to the
underlying data of the chart and review that, we will I think be
providing as good of access as anyone knows how to provide.


So if I understand this exchange correctly, all the info is required as
per the ODF spec., and so this then shifts to being the job of the ODF
applications - ensuring that they provide an efficient user interface
to getting at the underlying table(s) data(s) for any given chart being
displayed, and to navigating that data(s).



Regards,


Peter Korn

Accessibility Architect & Principal Engineer,

Sun Microsystems, Inc.


20080812142447.GP8805@sr1-eham02-01.Germany.Sun.COM" type="cite">
  
Hi Patrick,

On Tuesday, 2008-08-12 09:52:58 -0400, Patrick Durusau wrote:

  
  

    

      
On Friday, 2008-08-01 16:29:31 -0500, Pete Brunet wrote:

  
      
      

        
For accessibility purposes the AccSC needs to know if all ODF charts 
are *always* backed by a table.
[...]
        
      
      
For accessibility purposes it is not sufficient to read out the data of
one entire table.
[...]
  
      
    
    
Sorry, I am missing the import of your statement:

"For accessibility purposes it is not sufficient to read out the data of  
one entire table."

I agree with your statements about pointing to cell ranges but don't  
know how that affects accessibility?
    
  
  

Pete asked because of "accessibility purposes". I just wanted to point
out that chart data does not necessarily originate from one table or one
contiguous area in one table. I may have misunderstood his request
though.

  
  

    
Can you clarify the accessibility aspects of addressing multiple  
cell-ranges for a chart?
    
  
  

IMHO there are no special accessibility aspects except the fact that
various elements of a chart may pull their data from different regions
of a document.

  Eike

  

2008/8/12 Peter Korn 

Dave,

Dave Pawson wrote:
> 2008/8/12 Peter Korn 

2008/8/13 Patrick Durusau 

"Dave Pawson" 

2008/8/13  

"Dave Pawson"