OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

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Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

David Pawson

David Pawson07-18-2008 10:50

David Pawson

David Pawson07-19-2008 06:01

David Pawson

David Pawson07-19-2008 06:01

David Pawson

David Pawson07-18-2008 10:50

Richard Schwerdtfeger

Richard Schwerdtfeger07-18-2008 13:26

Richard Schwerdtfeger

Richard Schwerdtfeger07-18-2008 13:26

  • 1.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 09:08
    I don't agree on "require user agents to limit this to no more than 3
    times a second".
    
    I must admit that I don't believe a higher frequency would make any
    sense for anything, but People have different needs, and if someone for
    what every reason needs a higher frequency, the application should be
    allowed to support this.
    
    It's something the author should avoid.
    
    Malte.
    
    
    Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote, On 18.07.08 01:46:
    > That is fine. This will just mean we will require user agents and
    > authors to limit this to no more than 3 times a second which may cause
    > epileptic seizures. If we did not have adequate justification for having
    > this level of granularity we could avoid imposing this other
    > requirement. ok?
    > 
    > Rich
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > Rich Schwerdtfeger
    > Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    > Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    > Inactive hide details for "Duane Nickull" 


  • 2.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 10:50
    2008/7/18 Malte Timmermann 


  • 3.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 17:37
    
    
      
    
    
    Hi Dave,

    In OpenOffice.org we have the ability to turn animation off.  I agree with Malte; we shouldn't prevent the expression of fast animation for those who want it, but we should enable users to not have it displayed to them.


    Regards,

    Peter Korn
    Accessibility Architect,
    Sun Microsystems, Inc.

    711a73df0807180349r27be0293vf9cb7b4a31b68e67@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
    2008/7/18 Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann@sun.com>:
      
    I don't agree on "require user agents to limit this to no more than 3
    times a second".
    
    I must admit that I don't believe a higher frequency would make any
    sense for anything, but People have different needs, and if someone for
    what every reason needs a higher frequency, the application should be
    allowed to support this.
        
    
    Strongly disagree Malte.
    
    If there is a riks of causing an epeleptic fit, then I'd like
    to see a 'shall' statement in the standard requiring
    nothing more than 3 times per second.
    
    Peoples needs are my concern too.
    
    regards
    
    
    
      



  • 4.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 17:37
    
    
      
    
    
    Hi Dave,

    In OpenOffice.org we have the ability to turn animation off.  I agree with Malte; we shouldn't prevent the expression of fast animation for those who want it, but we should enable users to not have it displayed to them.


    Regards,

    Peter Korn
    Accessibility Architect,
    Sun Microsystems, Inc.

    711a73df0807180349r27be0293vf9cb7b4a31b68e67@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
    2008/7/18 Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann@sun.com>:
      
    I don't agree on "require user agents to limit this to no more than 3
    times a second".
    
    I must admit that I don't believe a higher frequency would make any
    sense for anything, but People have different needs, and if someone for
    what every reason needs a higher frequency, the application should be
    allowed to support this.
        
    
    Strongly disagree Malte.
    
    If there is a riks of causing an epeleptic fit, then I'd like
    to see a 'shall' statement in the standard requiring
    nothing more than 3 times per second.
    
    Peoples needs are my concern too.
    
    regards
    
    
    
      



  • 5.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 18:13
    
    
    
    
    The main point is that implementors have control when implementing the specification vs. being constrained by the spec.  Let’s not put weightless restrictions into the specification.

    Duane


    On 18/07/08 10:35 AM, "Peter Korn" <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM> wrote:

    Hi Dave,

    In OpenOffice.org we have the ability to turn animation off.  I agree with Malte; we shouldn't prevent the expression of fast animation for those who want it, but we should enable users to not have it displayed to them.


    Regards,

    Peter Korn
    Accessibility Architect,
    Sun Microsystems, Inc.


    2008/7/18 Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann@sun.com> <mailto:Malte.Timmermann@sun.com> :
      
     

    I don't agree on "require user agents to limit this to no more than 3
    times a second".

    I must admit that I don't believe a higher frequency would make any
    sense for anything, but People have different needs, and if someone for
    what every reason needs a higher frequency, the application should be
    allowed to support this.
        
     


    Strongly disagree Malte.

    If there is a riks of causing an epeleptic fit, then I'd like
    to see a 'shall' statement in the standard requiring
    nothing more than 3 times per second.

    Peoples needs are my concern too.

    regards



      



    --
    **********************************************************************
    Senior Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems, Inc.
    Duane's World TV Show - http://www.duanesworldtv.org/
    Blog - http://technoracle.blogspot.com
    Community Music - http://www.mix2r.com
    My Band - http://www.myspace.com/22ndcentury
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    **********************************************************************


  • 6.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 18:51

    The key point in my mind is that the nature of the problem ("a  risk of causing an epileptic fit") may raise this from an accessibility issue to a safety issue.  

    ISO Directives, Part 2, section A.2.3 gives the following guidance:

    "A.2.3 If health, safety aspects, the protection of the environment or the economical use of
    resources are relevant to the product, appropriate requirements shall be included. Otherwise,
    they may, in some countries, be made additional mandatory requirements which, if not
    harmonized, would constitute technical barriers to trade.

    These requirements may need to have certain characteristics with limiting values (maximum
    and/or minimum) or closely defined sizes and, in some cases, even constructional stipulations
    (for example, to achieve non-interchangeability for safety reasons). The levels at which these
    limits are fixed shall be such that the element of risk is reduced as much as practicable."


    So I think we should make some statement in the standard itself, not  merely in a separate guidelines document, that defines how to use this feature safely.

    Which leads me to the technical questions:

    1) Surely, the table refresh itself is inoffensive, right?  For example, an application could have a table refresh (fetch new data) but only display updates when some other condition was met.  Or you might not have any GUI at all and the updates and recalc's trigger some action on the server.

    2) Is any screen update faster than once every 3 seconds a problem?  Or is it only certain styles of updates, the ones which noticeably "flash" because of poor redrawing, lack of double buffering or whatever?  In other words is there any safe way of doing rapid screen updates?

    3) Most display technologies are already redrawing at a fast rate. This is inherent in the graphics card/display technology.  So very fast rates are OK?  What is the range of rates where it is a problem?

    4) How do we state this in the standard?  Would something like this work:  "Note: display devices which update information on the screen at rates between X Hz and Y Hz have been shown to prompt epileptic seizures in some people.  ODF applications which refresh the display with each table refresh shall provide an option for the user to suspend the rendering of such refreshes."  We could probably make a more general statement on refresh/animation/blink and place it in the conformance section of the standard.

    -Rob


    Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote on 07/18/2008 02:12:38 PM:
    >
    > The main point is that implementors have control when implementing
    > the specification vs. being constrained by the spec.  Let’s not put
    > weightless restrictions into the specification.
    >
    > Duane
    >
    >
    > On 18/07/08 10:35 AM, "Peter Korn" <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM> wrote:

    > Hi Dave,
    >
    > In OpenOffice.org we have the ability to turn animation off.  I
    > agree with Malte; we shouldn't prevent the expression of fast
    > animation for those who want it, but we should enable users to not
    > have it displayed to them.
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Peter Korn
    > Accessibility Architect,
    > Sun Microsystems, Inc.

    >
    > 2008/7/18 Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann@sun.com> <
    >
    mailto:Malte.Timmermann@sun.com> :
    >  
    >  

    >
    > I don't agree on "require user agents to limit this to no more than 3
    > times a second".
    >
    > I must admit that I don't believe a higher frequency would make any
    > sense for anything, but People have different needs, and if someone for
    > what every reason needs a higher frequency, the application should be
    > allowed to support this.
    >    
    >  

    >
    >
    > Strongly disagree Malte.
    >
    > If there is a riks of causing an epeleptic fit, then I'd like
    > to see a 'shall' statement in the standard requiring
    > nothing more than 3 times per second.
    >
    > Peoples needs are my concern too.
    >
    > regards
    >
    >
    >
    >  

    >



  • 7.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 18:51

    The key point in my mind is that the nature of the problem ("a  risk of causing an epileptic fit") may raise this from an accessibility issue to a safety issue.  

    ISO Directives, Part 2, section A.2.3 gives the following guidance:

    "A.2.3 If health, safety aspects, the protection of the environment or the economical use of
    resources are relevant to the product, appropriate requirements shall be included. Otherwise,
    they may, in some countries, be made additional mandatory requirements which, if not
    harmonized, would constitute technical barriers to trade.

    These requirements may need to have certain characteristics with limiting values (maximum
    and/or minimum) or closely defined sizes and, in some cases, even constructional stipulations
    (for example, to achieve non-interchangeability for safety reasons). The levels at which these
    limits are fixed shall be such that the element of risk is reduced as much as practicable."


    So I think we should make some statement in the standard itself, not  merely in a separate guidelines document, that defines how to use this feature safely.

    Which leads me to the technical questions:

    1) Surely, the table refresh itself is inoffensive, right?  For example, an application could have a table refresh (fetch new data) but only display updates when some other condition was met.  Or you might not have any GUI at all and the updates and recalc's trigger some action on the server.

    2) Is any screen update faster than once every 3 seconds a problem?  Or is it only certain styles of updates, the ones which noticeably "flash" because of poor redrawing, lack of double buffering or whatever?  In other words is there any safe way of doing rapid screen updates?

    3) Most display technologies are already redrawing at a fast rate. This is inherent in the graphics card/display technology.  So very fast rates are OK?  What is the range of rates where it is a problem?

    4) How do we state this in the standard?  Would something like this work:  "Note: display devices which update information on the screen at rates between X Hz and Y Hz have been shown to prompt epileptic seizures in some people.  ODF applications which refresh the display with each table refresh shall provide an option for the user to suspend the rendering of such refreshes."  We could probably make a more general statement on refresh/animation/blink and place it in the conformance section of the standard.

    -Rob


    Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote on 07/18/2008 02:12:38 PM:
    >
    > The main point is that implementors have control when implementing
    > the specification vs. being constrained by the spec.  Let’s not put
    > weightless restrictions into the specification.
    >
    > Duane
    >
    >
    > On 18/07/08 10:35 AM, "Peter Korn" <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM> wrote:

    > Hi Dave,
    >
    > In OpenOffice.org we have the ability to turn animation off.  I
    > agree with Malte; we shouldn't prevent the expression of fast
    > animation for those who want it, but we should enable users to not
    > have it displayed to them.
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Peter Korn
    > Accessibility Architect,
    > Sun Microsystems, Inc.

    >
    > 2008/7/18 Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann@sun.com> <
    >
    mailto:Malte.Timmermann@sun.com> :
    >  
    >  

    >
    > I don't agree on "require user agents to limit this to no more than 3
    > times a second".
    >
    > I must admit that I don't believe a higher frequency would make any
    > sense for anything, but People have different needs, and if someone for
    > what every reason needs a higher frequency, the application should be
    > allowed to support this.
    >    
    >  

    >
    >
    > Strongly disagree Malte.
    >
    > If there is a riks of causing an epeleptic fit, then I'd like
    > to see a 'shall' statement in the standard requiring
    > nothing more than 3 times per second.
    >
    > Peoples needs are my concern too.
    >
    > regards
    >
    >
    >
    >  

    >



  • 8.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 20:29
    Does the MPEG4 spec have a similar restriction? It seems to me that
    allowing quick changes in a video could also cause an epileptic fit.
    
    wt
    
    On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:52 AM,  


  • 9.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 22:31

    "Warren Turkal" <turkal@google.com> wrote on 07/18/2008 04:29:01 PM:
    >
    > Does the MPEG4 spec have a similar restriction? It seems to me that
    > allowing quick changes in a video could also cause an epileptic fit.
    >

    I don't know.  Unfortunately even JTC1/SC34 members are not given free access to other ISO standards.  So short of shelling out $70 to buy a copy, I cannot check.  Ironically, if we did want to make a statement on the safety implications of flickering, we are required to do so according to ISO/IEC Guide 51 "Safety aspects -- Guidelines for their inclusion in standards", but that is not available to us free.  That would cost $63.

    But one assumes that there is a risk with  MPEG4 as well.  At the very least you could have a video of an ODF editor doing a table refresh really fast.

    In any case, there is some good background here on the general problem:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_element

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy

    Sounds like the risky range is 2 Hz - 55 Hz, which should be avoided according to Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act:

    http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=12#Web

    What I'm not sure is whether "flicker" is the same as update, or is "flicker" just a symptom of poor graphics layer, e.g., cannot update text without first blanking it out.  With double-buffering, XOR'ing images, etc., we should have be able to have flicker-free updates if we wanted.  Your mouse doesn't flicker when you move it around your screen, does it?  That is more than 2Hz.

    -Rob


  • 10.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 23:11
    
    
    
    
    But do we, the standards org, have to worry about this?  There are hundreds of technologies that could be used to try and induce a physical response in a human.  Surely we are responsible for putting out a good spec only, not liable for something that may happen based on how people use the spec.  If you tried to sue someone for that in Canada you’d be thrown out of court on your butt unless you can prove someone deliberately and maliciously plotted by (participating in the specification and putting in features that allow an attack + deliberately authoring some content and showing it to a natural person to induce an attack).

    Surely EULA’s cover this.  This TC does not ship anything other than specifications.

    Duane



    On 18/07/08 3:32 PM, "robert_weir@us.ibm.com" <robert_weir@us.ibm.com> wrote:


    "Warren Turkal" <turkal@google.com> wrote on 07/18/2008 04:29:01 PM:
    >
    > Does the MPEG4 spec have a similar restriction? It seems to me that
    > allowing quick changes in a video could also cause an epileptic fit.
    >

    I don't know.  Unfortunately even JTC1/SC34 members are not given free access to other ISO standards.  So short of shelling out $70 to buy a copy, I cannot check.  Ironically, if we did want to make a statement on the safety implications of flickering, we are required to do so according to ISO/IEC Guide 51 "Safety aspects -- Guidelines for their inclusion in standards", but that is not available to us free.  That would cost $63.

    But one assumes that there is a risk with  MPEG4 as well.  At the very least you could have a video of an ODF editor doing a table refresh really fast.

    In any case, there is some good background here on the general problem:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_element <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_element>

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy>

    Sounds like the risky range is 2 Hz - 55 Hz, which should be avoided according to Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act:

    http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=12#Web <http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=12#Web>

    What I'm not sure is whether "flicker" is the same as update, or is "flicker" just a symptom of poor graphics layer, e.g., cannot update text without first blanking it out.  With double-buffering, XOR'ing images, etc., we should have be able to have flicker-free updates if we wanted.  Your mouse doesn't flicker when you move it around your screen, does it?  That is more than 2Hz.

    -Rob

    --
    **********************************************************************
    Senior Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems, Inc.
    Duane's World TV Show - http://www.duanesworldtv.org/
    Blog - http://technoracle.blogspot.com
    Community Music - http://www.mix2r.com
    My Band - http://www.myspace.com/22ndcentury
    Adobe MAX 2008 - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/2007/08/adobe-max-2008.html
    **********************************************************************


  • 11.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 23:42
    Does the W3C have similar requirements for conformming user agents?
    
    The thing is we shouldn't be limiting the technology unless it is for
    everyone's safety.
    
    wt
    
    On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Duane Nickull 


  • 12.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-19-2008 06:03
    2008/7/19 Duane Nickull 


  • 13.  Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-19-2008 06:44
    
    
      
    
    
    Dave,

    Did you see my earlier mail about the conditions under which refresh/flash might cause a seizure (as per the TEITAC final report)?  What accessibility concerns do you have about a rapid table cell refresh?  Is it reasonable to allow a refresh to be expressed as something that could occur rapidly if all user agents by default won't render anything that could cause a seizure?


    Regards,

    Peter Korn
    Accessibility Architect,
    Sun Microsystems, Inc.

    711a73df0807182303o5a16c142oacfd0c01441c720b@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
    2008/7/19 Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com>:
      
    But do we, the standards org, have to worry about this?  There are hundreds
    of technologies that could be used to try and induce a physical response in
    a human.  Surely we are responsible for putting out a good spec only, not
    liable for something that may happen based on how people use the spec.
        
    
    Oasis can totally ignore accessibility all together,
    
    It has chosen not to.
    
    Hence IMHO we have a responsibility to consider human reactions to
    the technology we put in place.
    
    Mandate table refresh to less than 3 per second.
    
    
    regards
    
      



  • 14.  Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-19-2008 06:53
    2008/7/19 Peter Korn 


  • 15.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 22:31

    "Warren Turkal" <turkal@google.com> wrote on 07/18/2008 04:29:01 PM:
    >
    > Does the MPEG4 spec have a similar restriction? It seems to me that
    > allowing quick changes in a video could also cause an epileptic fit.
    >

    I don't know.  Unfortunately even JTC1/SC34 members are not given free access to other ISO standards.  So short of shelling out $70 to buy a copy, I cannot check.  Ironically, if we did want to make a statement on the safety implications of flickering, we are required to do so according to ISO/IEC Guide 51 "Safety aspects -- Guidelines for their inclusion in standards", but that is not available to us free.  That would cost $63.

    But one assumes that there is a risk with  MPEG4 as well.  At the very least you could have a video of an ODF editor doing a table refresh really fast.

    In any case, there is some good background here on the general problem:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_element

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy

    Sounds like the risky range is 2 Hz - 55 Hz, which should be avoided according to Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act:

    http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=12#Web

    What I'm not sure is whether "flicker" is the same as update, or is "flicker" just a symptom of poor graphics layer, e.g., cannot update text without first blanking it out.  With double-buffering, XOR'ing images, etc., we should have be able to have flicker-free updates if we wanted.  Your mouse doesn't flicker when you move it around your screen, does it?  That is more than 2Hz.

    -Rob


  • 16.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 20:59
    
    
    
    
    I think the key question was around refresh rate values and what they meant.  This has digressed slightly.  I had suggested milliseconds is a good measurement of time for the value.  Whether or not it can cause epileptic fits is none of my concern.  Looking at ugly ODF docs or other content has an equal wieght in this regard and the onus is on the author – we are not telling people what content to use.

    I would like to ask for a decision – milliseconds as a measurement for refresh rates or ????

    What is the alternative people are thinking of if not milliseconds?  

    Duane


    On 18/07/08 11:52 AM, "robert_weir@us.ibm.com" <robert_weir@us.ibm.com> wrote:


    The key point in my mind is that the nature of the problem ("a  risk of causing an epileptic fit") may raise this from an accessibility issue to a safety issue.  

    ISO Directives, Part 2, section A.2.3 gives the following guidance:

    "A.2.3 If health, safety aspects, the protection of the environment or the economical use of
    resources are relevant to the product, appropriate requirements shall be included. Otherwise,
    they may, in some countries, be made additional mandatory requirements which, if not
    harmonized, would constitute technical barriers to trade.

    These requirements may need to have certain characteristics with limiting values (maximum
    and/or minimum) or closely defined sizes and, in some cases, even constructional stipulations
    (for example, to achieve non-interchangeability for safety reasons). The levels at which these
    limits are fixed shall be such that the element of risk is reduced as much as practicable."


    So I think we should make some statement in the standard itself, not  merely in a separate guidelines document, that defines how to use this feature safely.

    Which leads me to the technical questions:

    1) Surely, the table refresh itself is inoffensive, right?  For example, an application could have a table refresh (fetch new data) but only display updates when some other condition was met.  Or you might not have any GUI at all and the updates and recalc's trigger some action on the server.

    2) Is any screen update faster than once every 3 seconds a problem?  Or is it only certain styles of updates, the ones which noticeably "flash" because of poor redrawing, lack of double buffering or whatever?  In other words is there any safe way of doing rapid screen updates?

    3) Most display technologies are already redrawing at a fast rate. This is inherent in the graphics card/display technology.  So very fast rates are OK?  What is the range of rates where it is a problem?

    4) How do we state this in the standard?  Would something like this work:  "Note: display devices which update information on the screen at rates between X Hz and Y Hz have been shown to prompt epileptic seizures in some people.  ODF applications which refresh the display with each table refresh shall provide an option for the user to suspend the rendering of such refreshes."  We could probably make a more general statement on refresh/animation/blink and place it in the conformance section of the standard.

    -Rob


    Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote on 07/18/2008 02:12:38 PM:
    >
    > The main point is that implementors have control when implementing
    > the specification vs. being constrained by the spec.  Let’s not put
    > weightless restrictions into the specification.
    >
    > Duane
    >
    >
    > On 18/07/08 10:35 AM, "Peter Korn" <Peter.Korn@Sun.COM> wrote:

    > Hi Dave,
    >
    > In OpenOffice.org we have the ability to turn animation off. I
    > agree with Malte; we shouldn't prevent the expression of fast
    > animation for those who want it, but we should enable users to not
    > have it displayed to them.
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Peter Korn
    > Accessibility Architect,
    > Sun Microsystems, Inc.

    >
    > 2008/7/18 Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann@sun.com> <
    > mailto:Malte.Timmermann@sun.com
    <mailto:Malte.Timmermann@sun.com> > :
    >   
    >  
    >
    > I don't agree on "require user agents to limit this to no more than 3
    > times a second".
    >
    > I must admit that I don't believe a higher frequency would make any
    > sense for anything, but People have different needs, and if someone for
    > what every reason needs a higher frequency, the application should be
    > allowed to support this.
    >     
    >  
    >
    >
    > Strongly disagree Malte.
    >
    > If there is a riks of causing an epeleptic fit, then I'd like
    > to see a 'shall' statement in the standard requiring
    > nothing more than 3 times per second.
    >
    > Peoples needs are my concern too.
    >
    > regards
    >
    >
    >
    >   
    >



    --
    **********************************************************************
    Senior Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems, Inc.
    Duane's World TV Show - http://www.duanesworldtv.org/
    Blog - http://technoracle.blogspot.com
    Community Music - http://www.mix2r.com
    My Band - http://www.myspace.com/22ndcentury
    Adobe MAX 2008 - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/2007/08/adobe-max-2008.html
    **********************************************************************


  • 17.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 21:04
    -office-accessibility since I am not a member of that list and can't post.
    
    I am in favor of using ms. I'm not sure that more granularity would
    actually buy us anything.
    
    wt
    
    On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Duane Nickull 


  • 18.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 21:13

    Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote on 07/18/2008 04:57:00 PM:

    >
    > I think the key question was around refresh rate values and what
    > they meant.  This has digressed slightly.  I had suggested
    > milliseconds is a good measurement of time for the value.  Whether
    > or not it can cause epileptic fits is none of my concern.  Looking
    > at ugly ODF docs or other content has an equal wieght in this regard
    > and the onus is on the author – we are not telling people what content to use.
    >
    > I would like to ask for a decision – milliseconds as a measurement
    > for refresh rates or ????
    >
    > What is the alternative people are thinking of if not milliseconds?  
    >

    I agree with you 100% that this was the initial question.  And I think that the answer is that the value is unambiguously a ISO 8601 duration string, which has granularity of milliseconds.  That is how the underlying XML Schema datatype defines it, which ODF references.

    However, Rich asked this question in the context of an Accessibility SC general review of this type of refresh issue in ODF, so the follow-up question to knowing that the attribute allows very small refresh intervals, is whether this should be accompanied by an additional statement on any health and safety impact.  They can probably carry on with that discussion on the SC's mailing list and bring it up again to the full TC when they have a proposal.

    -Rob


  • 19.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 21:13

    Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote on 07/18/2008 04:57:00 PM:

    >
    > I think the key question was around refresh rate values and what
    > they meant.  This has digressed slightly.  I had suggested
    > milliseconds is a good measurement of time for the value.  Whether
    > or not it can cause epileptic fits is none of my concern.  Looking
    > at ugly ODF docs or other content has an equal wieght in this regard
    > and the onus is on the author – we are not telling people what content to use.
    >
    > I would like to ask for a decision – milliseconds as a measurement
    > for refresh rates or ????
    >
    > What is the alternative people are thinking of if not milliseconds?  
    >

    I agree with you 100% that this was the initial question.  And I think that the answer is that the value is unambiguously a ISO 8601 duration string, which has granularity of milliseconds.  That is how the underlying XML Schema datatype defines it, which ODF references.

    However, Rich asked this question in the context of an Accessibility SC general review of this type of refresh issue in ODF, so the follow-up question to knowing that the attribute allows very small refresh intervals, is whether this should be accompanied by an additional statement on any health and safety impact.  They can probably carry on with that discussion on the SC's mailing list and bring it up again to the full TC when they have a proposal.

    -Rob


  • 20.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-19-2008 06:01
    2008/7/18 Peter Korn 


  • 21.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-19-2008 06:01
    2008/7/18 Peter Korn 


  • 22.  Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 10:50
    2008/7/18 Malte Timmermann 


  • 23.  Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 13:26



  • 24.  Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 16:24
    
    
    
    
    My argument is that people will always be able to use technologies in annoying ways.  We should not, as a standards body, place artificial limits on things like this.  For starters, you have no idea what hardware and use cases all people have.  Most other technologies allow transitions over milliseconds to add multimedia type effects to documents.  A use case might be to fade a numeric value or background from one color to another over 2 seconds.  It would look chunky using only 6 transitions.  

    Give developers and designers control please.  You can suggest they do not refresh 1000 cells in a table 1000 times per second but you know someone will do it anyway.

    Duane


    On 18/07/08 6:26 AM, "Richard Schwerdtfeger" <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:

    We will need user agent and author guidance. In the case where the author forgets we need a backup that is within user control.

    Rich



    Rich Schwerdtfeger
    Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review  Board
    blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann@Sun.COM>


    To


    Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS

    cc


    Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com>, office@lists.oasis-open.org, office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org

    Subject


    [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    I don't agree on "require user agents to limit this to no more than 3
    times a second".

    I must admit that I don't believe a higher frequency would make any
    sense for anything, but People have different needs, and if someone for
    what every reason needs a higher frequency, the application should be
    allowed to support this.

    It's something the author should avoid.

    Malte.


    Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote, On 18.07.08 01:46:
    > That is fine. This will just mean we will require user agents and
    > authors to limit this to no more than 3 times a second which may cause
    > epileptic seizures. If we did not have adequate justification for having
    > this level of granularity we could avoid imposing this other
    > requirement. ok?
    >
    > Rich
    >
    >
    >
    > Rich Schwerdtfeger
    > Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
    > Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
    > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
    > Inactive hide details for "Duane Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>"Duane">dnickull@adobe.com>"Duane
    > Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>
    >
    >
    >                         *"Duane Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>*">dnickull@adobe.com>*
    >
    >                         07/14/08 02:23 PM
    >
    >  
    >
    > To
    >  
    > Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
    >
    > cc
    >  
    > <office@lists.oasis-open.org>, <office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org>
    >
    > Subject
    >  
    > Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay
    >
    >  
    >
    >
    > Whether or not it is done 1000 times per second is not the issue. Giving
    > developers and document writers the ability to control it via mlsecs
    > would be nice to have for interactive documents.  Transitions of content
    > to highlight or change things (think MS PPT) should probably use a
    > consistent model across all odf content.  Make some sense?
    > Aus mein Blackberry/from my Blackberry
    >
    >



  • 25.  Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table Refresh Delay

    Posted 07-18-2008 13:26
      |   view attached