Just a belated point of clarification: when I said "It's a question of documenting the broad industry consensus behind the specification," I didn't mean to imply that the companies we work for endorse the 1.2 spec.
Nevertheless, we do work for those companies, we do the kind of technical work this TC seeks to provide standards for there - in fact, given the kind of work this is, typically very few other people do the same kind of work we do in these companies, vendors excepted - and we individually do endorse the spec.
So a list of participating TC members does provide value in showing that people who do this kind of work - document markup and processing work - at these major companies participated in developing it and all agreed on it.
That's all I meant by "broad industry consensus."
OTOH, an acknowledgements list, while a nice and no doubt well-deserved pat-on-the-back for the people who worked hardest getting this out the door, doesn't add any value that I can see to the spec itself.
--Dana
Original Message-----
From: Ogden, Jeff [mailto:jogden@ptc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:10 AM
To: Bruce Nevin (bnevin); Dana Spradley; Kristen James Eberlein; DITA TC
Subject: RE: [dita] Acknowledgments in the DITA 1.2 spec -- what should they contain?
I don't think that acknowledgement of individuals in the spec. should be
taken to say anything about a company's support or endorsement of the
standard.
I think the list of TC members (separate from acknowledgements) at the
time the spec. was approved and submitted to OASIS as a "committee
draft" says that the TC as a whole supports the spec. And folks should
be able to ask to have their names removed from that list.
And separately from all of this, part of the approval process involves
us collecting statements of successful use from organizations. Those
aren't part of the spec., but they are a required part of the approval
process so people can assume that it was done once the spec. is
approved.
And finally the "committee draft" of the spec. that the TC approves
receives a final "public" review and a vote by OASIS members. This more
than anything else says something about endorsement and support for the
standard.
While PTC's lawyers are happy to let me serve on the TC (mostly because
they probably don't know about it), they are very fussy about who can
make commitments of any sort in PTC's name. I'm certainly not allowed to
do that on my own. I think you need to be a vice president or perhaps a
senior vice president to be able to do that. And I'm pretty sure we
don't want the DITA spec. to have to be reviewed by corporate legal
departments before it is submitted for approval :-).
-Jeff
>
Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Nevin (bnevin) [mailto:bnevin@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 1:03 AM
> To: Dana Spradley; Kristen James Eberlein; DITA TC
> Subject: RE: [dita] Acknowledgments in the DITA 1.2 spec -- what
should
> they contain?
>
> Oh goodness, no nerve touched here. I'm just trying for clear
> expression. There are two distinct functions discussed here: The TC's
> recognition of contributions by TC members, and the TC members'
> certification of their companies' support or endorsement of the
> standard. Is it sensible to overload the acknowledgements list with
> both
> functions? (BTW, the latter works for vendors of DITA-compliant tools
> much more than for DITA adopters who may be members.)
>
> /Bruce
>
> >
Original Message-----
> > From: Dana Spradley [mailto:dana.spradley@oracle.com]
> > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:35 PM
> > To: Bruce Nevin (bnevin); Kristen James Eberlein; DITA TC
> > Subject: RE: [dita] Acknowledgments in the DITA 1.2 spec --
> > what should they contain?
> >
> > Sorry I touched a nerve, Bruce, with my mention of
> > potentially "dissident" members.
> >
> > I was fishing, mystified as to why Paul wanted to be left off
> > the list.
> >
> > --Dana
> >
> >
Original Message-----
> > From: Bruce Nevin (bnevin) [mailto:bnevin@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 1:58 PM
> > To: Dana Spradley; Kristen James Eberlein; DITA TC
> > Subject: RE: [dita] Acknowledgments in the DITA 1.2 spec --
> > what should they contain?
> >
> > You are conflating two purposes, which traditionally are
> > served by distinct content elements (if I may use that term):
> >
> > 1. Recognition of contributions (acknowledgements).
> > 2. Demonstration of support (approvals).
> >
> > Why isn't the second "approvals" purpose served by the
> > membership roster? You propose that there might be "dissident
> > members who don't want to quit the committee, but don't agree
> > with signification portions of the spec".
> >
> > I propose that we don't need to log approvals separately from
> > the membership roster as a whole unless and until such
> > members step forward and say they do not want their
> > membership to be construed as approval of every aspect of the spec.
> >
> > A more pointed approach would be a section for
> > dissent/demurral in which the dissenting members could
> > summarize their specific misgivings. This actually flows
> > naturally from our consensus process. I have numerous times
> > heard someone say "I can live with that", which I take as
> > willingness to stand aside and not block a decision, while
> > still retaining reservations. Those reservations are on
> > record in the minutes.
> > Do they need to be in the spec?
> >
> > And again, why do we need to log approvals, since approval is
> > explicit in our consensus process?
> >
> > Given that consensus process, a stronger "I can't live with
> > that" form of dissent is possible only if the dissenting
> > member were absent when those decisions were made to which
> > they object, and they didn't bring up the objections in
> > subsequent meetings. How likely is that?
> >
> > /Bruce
> >
> > >
Original Message-----
> > > From: Dana Spradley [mailto:dana.spradley@oracle.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:59 PM
> > > To: Kristen James Eberlein; DITA TC
> > > Subject: RE: [dita] Acknowledgments in the DITA 1.2 spec -- what
> > > should they contain?
> > >
> > > After looking more into this issue after today's meeting, I
> > think our
> > > focus may have been a little off.
> > >
> > > Ideally the "list of people who participated in the
> > development of the
> > > specification" should include all members of the TC.
> > >
> > > It's not a question of acknowledging the level of
> > individual effort.
> > > It's a question of documenting the broad industry consensus
> > behind the
> > > specification.
> > >
> > > That being said, some dissident members who don't want to quit the
> > > committee, but don't agree with signification portions of the
spec,
> > > may want their names left off. I'm not sure if that's the
> > reason why,
> > > but apparently Paul doesn't want to be listed.
> > >
> > > To me, it seems the safest procedure would be for Don as
> > chair or his
> > > representative to send an email to each member individually,
asking
> > > them to confirm whether they want their name included, or
> > not - and to
> > > follow up until he gets a definite answer from each member.
> > >
> > > As for individual effort, if the committee wishes to establish
> > > different levels of contribution - Project Manager, Author,
Editor,
> > > Participant, say - with clear criteria we all agree on as
> > to who gets
> > > included in each category - I myself would not be averse to that.
> > >
> > > --Dana
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
Original Message-----
> > > From: Kristen James Eberlein [mailto:kris@eberleinconsulting.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 6:47 AM
> > > To: DITA TC
> > > Subject: [dita] Acknowledgments in the DITA 1.2 spec -- what
should
> > > they contain?
> > >
> > > An open review comment concerns whom we list as contributing to
the
> > > DITA
> > > 1.2 spec. See
> > > http://wiki.oasis-open.org/dita/AboutThe3#Acknowledgements
> > > for the discussion.
> > >
> > > Kris
> > >
> > > Kristen James Eberlein
> > > Principal consultant, Eberlein Consulting Secretary, OASIS DITA
> > > Technical Committee Charter member, OASIS DITA Adoption Committee
> > > www.eberleinconsulting.com
> > > +1 919 682-2290; keberlein (skype)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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