OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

Hi all, This refers to the version in https://github.com/svanteschubert/odf-tc/ as of 26. Aug, 15:00. Outline Style and Level ============================= Paragraph style "AppendixHeading1" should be named "AppendixHeadingA" because it makes a numbering with capitals. It must have outline level "Level 1". But for ODF 1.3 we can stay with "AppendixHeading1" and change it for ODF 1.4. The style for the second outline level should be named "AppendixHeadingA1" and must have the outline level "Level 2". That is already correct. Following that convention, the style for the third outline level should be named "AppendixHeadingA11" with outline level "Level 3". Such style is needed in part 3 but missing. All of these paragraph styles have to set numbering style "Appendix". To align numbering level with outline level do not use the "indent" button. That will put a direct formatting with an anonymous numbering style and so loose the connection to the numbering style "Appendix". Instead first set the paragraph style which belongs to the desired outline level. Then use the "Increment Level" and "Decrement Level" buttons of the "Bullet and Numbering"-toolbar. In default LibreOffice settings this toolbar is opened above the status bar when the cursor is in such formatted heading. Whether it is done correctly can be seen in the status bar. For a heading in the Appendix on outline level 2, you should read "Appendix:Level 2, Outline 2". for example. Part 1: correct Part 2: correct Part 3: totally wrong. I will discuss solutions with Svante. Part 4: correct Typography of Numbering ======================== a) Heading numbering never has a dot after the numbering. b) If a heading is so long, that is needs more than one line, then the second and following lines should start at the same vertical position as the content of the first line. Currently the heading numbering "Appendix" is an "old style" numbering. In this the start position of the content is determined by "Width of numbering:" in tab "Position" in the "Modify"-dialog in LibreOffice. Settings have to be made separately for each numbering level. I will discuss solutions for that with Svante. Content Problems ================ Appendix A (OpenDocument Relax NG Schema), Appendix B (OpenDocument Metadata Manifest Ontology) and Appendix D (Accessibility Guidelines) in part 3 have generated content about "text:space-before", which shouldn't be there. The indentation of the second level sections of the Appendix in the TOC is wrong. That is likely produced by the wrong formatting of the headings in the Appendix. Kind regards Regina

Hi Regina I thought that the number suffix on a style name indicates the outline level, not the numbering style. For example, 'Heading1' is Level 1, 'Heading2' is Level 2 and so on. In LO these are built-in and cannot be changed, even if for a particular project one was to choose an alphabetical numbering style for, say, 'Heading1'. So, changing the style name 'Appendix1' to 'AppendixA' strikes me as stylistically inconsistent, since 'A' indicates the numbering style, not the outline level. But I agree that the outline level and numbering style should both be set correctly for each of the appendix heading styles, and these are not correct in Part 3 currently. Kind regards, Francis
Original Message----- From: office@lists.oasis-open.org <office@lists.oasis-open.org> On Behalf Of Regina Henschel Sent: 26 August 2020 15:05 To: ODF member <office@lists.oasis-open.org>; Svante Schubert <svante.schubert@gmail.com> Subject: [office] Problems with Appendix in ODF 1.3 Hi all, This refers to the version in https://github.com/svanteschubert/odf-tc/ as of 26. Aug, 15:00. Outline Style and Level ============================= Paragraph style "AppendixHeading1" should be named "AppendixHeadingA" because it makes a numbering with capitals. It must have outline level "Level 1". But for ODF 1.3 we can stay with "AppendixHeading1" and change it for ODF 1.4. The style for the second outline level should be named "AppendixHeadingA1" and must have the outline level "Level 2". That is already correct. Following that convention, the style for the third outline level should be named "AppendixHeadingA11" with outline level "Level 3". Such style is needed in part 3 but missing. All of these paragraph styles have to set numbering style "Appendix". To align numbering level with outline level do not use the "indent" button. That will put a direct formatting with an anonymous numbering style and so loose the connection to the numbering style "Appendix". Instead first set the paragraph style which belongs to the desired outline level. Then use the "Increment Level" and "Decrement Level" buttons of the "Bullet and Numbering"-toolbar. In default LibreOffice settings this toolbar is opened above the status bar when the cursor is in such formatted heading. Whether it is done correctly can be seen in the status bar. For a heading in the Appendix on outline level 2, you should read "Appendix:Level 2, Outline 2". for example. Part 1: correct Part 2: correct Part 3: totally wrong. I will discuss solutions with Svante. Part 4: correct Typography of Numbering ======================== a) Heading numbering never has a dot after the numbering. b) If a heading is so long, that is needs more than one line, then the second and following lines should start at the same vertical position as the content of the first line. Currently the heading numbering "Appendix" is an "old style" numbering. In this the start position of the content is determined by "Width of numbering:" in tab "Position" in the "Modify"-dialog in LibreOffice. Settings have to be made separately for each numbering level. I will discuss solutions for that with Svante. Content Problems ================ Appendix A (OpenDocument Relax NG Schema), Appendix B (OpenDocument Metadata Manifest Ontology) and Appendix D (Accessibility Guidelines) in part 3 have generated content about "text:space-before", which shouldn't be there. The indentation of the second level sections of the Appendix in the TOC is wrong. That is likely produced by the wrong formatting of the headings in the Appendix. Kind regards Regina --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php

Francis Cave schrieb am 26-Aug-20 um 18:36: Hi Regina I thought that the number suffix on a style name indicates the outline level, not the numbering style. For example, 'Heading1' is Level 1, 'Heading2' is Level 2 and so on. In LO these are built-in and cannot be changed, even if for a particular project one was to choose an alphabetical numbering style for, say, 'Heading1'. So, changing the style name 'Appendix1' to 'AppendixA' strikes me as stylistically inconsistent, since 'A' indicates the numbering style, not the outline level. But I agree that the outline level and numbering style should both be set correctly for each of the appendix heading styles, and these are not correct in Part 3 currently. I'm currently changing that is part 3. So if you want to have "Appendix Heading 1" for level 1, "Appendix Heading 2" for level 2 and "Appendix Heading 3" for level 3, that is no problem. I would then make it consistent over all four parts. Currently I have "Appendix A", "Appendix A.1" and "Appendix A.1.1". Please tell me what you want. I have promised Svante to finish changes today. Kind regards Regina

Hi Regina My preference would be to call the level-specific paragraph styles 'Appendix Heading 1', 'Appendix Heading 2' and 'Appendix Heading 3', and the conditional style 'Appendix Heading' as currently. However, it would be OK to shorten the level-specific style names to 'Appendix 1', 'Appendix 2' and 'Appendix 3', if you have a strong preference for the shorter names. I realise that spaces in style names have to be escaped '_20_' in the underlying XML, which makes them quite long, but since many style names already contain spaces, I don't think we should deviate from that convention for now. Maybe we could review that convention in the future. Kind regards, Francis Sent from my iPad > On 26 Aug 2020, at 18:07, Regina Henschel <regina.henschel@libreoffice.org> wrote: > > Francis Cave schrieb am 26-Aug-20 um 18:36: >> Hi Regina >> I thought that the number suffix on a style name indicates the outline level, not the numbering style. >> For example, 'Heading1' is Level 1, 'Heading2' is Level 2 and so on. In LO these are built-in and cannot be changed, even if for a particular project one was to choose an alphabetical numbering style for, say, 'Heading1'. >> So, changing the style name 'Appendix1' to 'AppendixA' strikes me as stylistically inconsistent, since 'A' indicates the numbering style, not the outline level. >> But I agree that the outline level and numbering style should both be set correctly for each of the appendix heading styles, and these are not correct in Part 3 currently. > > I'm currently changing that is part 3. So if you want to have "Appendix Heading 1" for level 1, "Appendix Heading 2" for level 2 and "Appendix Heading 3" for level 3, that is no problem. > I would then make it consistent over all four parts. > > Currently I have "Appendix A", "Appendix A.1" and "Appendix A.1.1". > > Please tell me what you want. I have promised Svante to finish changes today. > > Kind regards > Regina

Hi Francis, Francis Cave schrieb am 26-Aug-20 um 21:25: Hi Regina My preference would be to call the level-specific paragraph styles 'Appendix Heading 1', 'Appendix Heading 2' and 'Appendix Heading 3', That is my current state. That is indeed better. and the conditional style 'Appendix Heading' as currently. I see 'Appendix Heading' only in the erroneous appendix in part 3. I have replaced it and used inheritance instead to make the appendix headings look the same as the headings in the normal text. Do you think a conditional style is easier to use and better to maintain as inheritance? In that case this should not be used only in part 3, but in the other parts too. I can make a solution with conditional style for the Appendix. What does the others think? Svante, what is better for you for creating the HTML version? However, it would be OK to shorten the level-specific style names to 'Appendix 1', 'Appendix 2' and 'Appendix 3', if you have a strong preference for the shorter names. Having "Heading" in the name is fine for me. I realise that spaces in style names have to be escaped '_20_' in the underlying XML, which makes them quite long, but since many style names already contain spaces, I don't think we should deviate from that convention for now. Maybe we could review that convention in the future. The spacing makes the style names easier to read. So that is OK. Kind regards Regina

Hi Regina The reason there is a condition paragraph style 'Appendix Heading' in Part 3 is that it was definitely used in ODF 1.2, but was missing in recent drafts of ODF 1.3, so I recently reinstated it in Part 3, but not in other Parts. So, I must apologise for creating confusion. I'm not completely convinced that conditional paragraph styles are a good idea, but they are a distinctive feature of ODF which is not, for example, in OOXML. They are tricky to set up, and also there is no conditional style for chapter headings, so just using them in the Appendices seems a little odd - but that was the situation in ODF 1.2. Kind regards, Francis
Original Message----- From: Regina Henschel <regina.henschel@libreoffice.org> Sent: 26 August 2020 21:47 To: Francis Cave <francis@franciscave.com> Cc: ODF member <office@lists.oasis-open.org>; Svante Schubert <svante.schubert@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [office] Problems with Appendix in ODF 1.3 Hi Francis, Francis Cave schrieb am 26-Aug-20 um 21:25: > Hi Regina > > My preference would be to call the level-specific paragraph styles > 'Appendix Heading 1', 'Appendix Heading 2' and 'Appendix Heading 3', That is my current state. That is indeed better. and the conditional style 'Appendix Heading' as currently. I see 'Appendix Heading' only in the erroneous appendix in part 3. I have replaced it and used inheritance instead to make the appendix headings look the same as the headings in the normal text. Do you think a conditional style is easier to use and better to maintain as inheritance? In that case this should not be used only in part 3, but in the other parts too. I can make a solution with conditional style for the Appendix. What does the others think? Svante, what is better for you for creating the HTML version? However, it would be OK to shorten the level-specific style names to 'Appendix 1', 'Appendix 2' and 'Appendix 3', if you have a strong preference for the shorter names. Having "Heading" in the name is fine for me. > > I realise that spaces in style names have to be escaped '_20_' in the underlying XML, which makes them quite long, but since many style names already contain spaces, I don't think we should deviate from that convention for now. Maybe we could review that convention in the future. The spacing makes the style names easier to read. So that is OK. Kind regards Regina

Hi Francis, hi Svante, Francis Cave schrieb am 26-Aug-20 um 23:01: Hi Regina The reason there is a condition paragraph style 'Appendix Heading' in Part 3 is that it was definitely used in ODF 1.2, but was missing in recent drafts of ODF 1.3, so I recently reinstated it in Part 3, but not in other Parts. So, I must apologise for creating confusion. I'm not completely convinced that conditional paragraph styles are a good idea, but they are a distinctive feature of ODF which is not, for example, in OOXML. They are tricky to set up, and also there is no conditional style for chapter headings, so just using them in the Appendices seems a little odd - but that was the situation in ODF 1.2. If "Heading 1", "Heading 2" etc. are bound to the outline, they cannot be used as style in the condition. You can set them, but the intended purpose, that changing the numbering level will automatically change the outline level, will not work. The visual appearance in the text will be correct, but the position of the items in the TOC will be wrong. So using a conditional style still requires to define "Appendix Heading 1", "Appendix Heading 2" etc. and set the outline level of them in their style definition. Of cause using a conditional style means, that changing the outline level is one click, instead of changing the style manually and applying the numbering level manually. Kind regards Regina

Hi Francis, hi Svante, Francis Cave schrieb am 26-Aug-20 um 23:01: Hi Regina The reason there is a condition paragraph style 'Appendix Heading' in Part 3 is that it was definitely used in ODF 1.2, but was missing in recent drafts of ODF 1.3, so I recently reinstated it in Part 3, but not in other Parts. So, I must apologise for creating confusion. I'm not completely convinced that conditional paragraph styles are a good idea, but they are a distinctive feature of ODF which is not, for example, in OOXML. They are tricky to set up, and also there is no conditional style for chapter headings, so just using them in the Appendices seems a little odd - but that was the situation in ODF 1.2. "Promote" and "Demote" does not work in Word, neither with pure "outline level" & "numbering level" nor with "conditional style". So Word gives no reason to prefer one over the other. Kind regards Regina